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MR2-Spyder C-Stock setup (much of this is ES relevant)

32K views 46 replies 19 participants last post by  MordacP 
#1 ·
I’ve had several people ask me about this and thought I would just share some thoughts.

I would recommend driving the car bone stock from the factory at least once. Not only does this familiarize yourself with the car, but gives you a baseline of what each modification changes and what you want to change as far as the handling of the car is concerned.

This is how I set up my 2000 and can apply through the 2002 years since they use the same wheel sizes. The 03 and up use the 16x7 rear wheel, and the 04 and up have the lsd option and some additional bracing, so setting those up may have its differences, but the basics are the same.

If I had to place modifications in order this is how I would do it:
1. Crash bolts/alignment
2. Front Swaybar
3. Cat-back exhaust
4. Shocks

Now, you can throw in a panel air filter pretty much anywhere, but I would throw in R-compound tires in after the front swaybar.

2-Dot front factory crash bolts. The bolts will have 2 dots on the head of the bolt (whereas the stock ones have not dots on them)
(4) Bolt – pn:90105-14147
(4) Washer – pn:90201-14005
(4) Nuts – pn:90179-15006

You will use 2 on each side, one lower and one upper. The bolts have a smaller shaft diameter allowing the hub to have an increased angle in relation to the strut. Max them out when installing by pulling the lower part of the bracket towards you and the upper towards the inside of the car, giving you max camber (around -2.5°).

The rears you cannot replace (legally), but there is some slop in there, max those out the same way.

Time for an alignment. Here is where personal preference/set up begins. I personally run zero total toe in the front and zero total toe in the rear. I have not found any ill effects on tire wear, but if you are concerned, add a little total toe-in (1/16”) in the front/rear to account for the drag.

More total toe-out in the front will give you a crisper turn-in, and I wouldn’t go more than 1/8” total toe-out. Much more and you get into weird wear patterns and instability. More total toe-out in the rear will make the car rotate more. More total toe-in for the rear makes it more stable. The stock suspension, under compression (acceleration) the rear will toe-in some, so that is why you find people running zero total toe to even some total toe-out to compensate. Again, tweak to your driving style. The added front negative camber will dramatically increase the front grip, so be careful on the street. I would highly recommend staggering your tire width front to rear to help keep from swapping ends. R-compounds are a lot stickier so they take a much more aggressive alignment. Just because the car handles a certain way with the same size R-compounds front and rear doesn’t mean you get the same characteristics from street tires. Be careful.

Front sway bar. The popular choice is the Saner Performance front bar. There are 2 flavors, 1” and 1-1/8” thick, both are 3-way adjustable. The holes towards the front of the car (end of the swaybar arm) are the softer settings, the holes closer to the rear of the car (closer to the main bar) are the stiffest. I use the 1-1/8” bar in the middle setting. The front swaybar will help to aid in turn-in, controlling body roll and camber loss in MacStrut suspensions, and increase more front stiffness to inhibit some of the inside wheelspin you will encounter on sweepers/corner exit. Swaybars act by reducing grip, so going too stiff may result in understeer or the front of the car “skating”. You cannot change/modify the rear swaybar. You can also make a Schoeder (NASCAR) style 3-piece bar as well. Endlinks are open, and swaybar bushings are open as well. Be aware that weld reinforcing of the swaybar bracket is recommended (and legal) as the larger swaybars have been known to tear these brackets away from the frame. Also, when installing your Saner swaybar, be sure to install it with the holes closest to the top so that the bar doesn’t get in the way of the strut and potentially the compression adjustment knob (if you have double adjustable) for your shocks (see below).

Cat-back exhaust. The stock unit is very heavy and very restrictive. You have to make sure you find one that exits the same side as stock (left/driver) side. You cannot cut the underbody plastics to allow another exhaust to work, like the Team Moon. I personally made mine from a DynoMax muffler and cannibalized the stock pipe that goes from the catalytic converter and the exhaust tip, so it looks stock. Che and TRD work as well.

Benefits of the cat-back. Not only reducing a lot of weight behind the wheels, you free up some horsepower up top, and throttle response is improved dramatically. Also, it allows you to be able to hear the motor better for shifting, and where you may be in the powerband.

Go ahead and get a drop-in replacement panel air filter (K&N, etc). I tried a Green Air Filter, and like them a lot, but they do not fit properly in the stock air box. No CAI, or modifying the stock air box/piping allowed. Don’t forget to clean your MAF sensor (see spring cleaning).

Shocks. Koni Sport shocks are the popular choice.
(2) Front – pn: 8641-1420 SPORT
(2) Rear – pn: 8641-1422 SPORT

The Koni Sport off the shelf (OTS) shocks are an insert that you have to modify the stock struts to insert them. They are rebound adjustable only. You can send them back to Koni for a re-valve and/or to make them double-adjustable (rebound and compression). The rebound adjustment is at the top of the unit accessed from the frunk and the compression will be adjustable from below the strut.

What do shocks/struts do for our stock class cars?
They will make the car react quicker to your inputs. The beauty of them is, that they allow you a way to adjust the setup for the car depending on the characteristics the car is exhibiting that day. I say that because the Spyder does have a moving "window" of ideal setup per event, usually. I have talked to several past and present Spyder pilots and shock settings vary greatly. Some run full stiff all around, stiff front/soft rear, soft front/stiff rear, middle all around. It really is going to depend on the rest of your setup and driving style. I don't mess with tire pressures at an event, I find their best operating temp with a pyrometer and let them be, I use the shocks to change the balance of the car.

I pretty much leave the fronts at 1/8 turn off full stiff, and adjust the rears as needed, starting them at about 1/4 turn off full soft. More rear shock will get the car to rotate (oversteer) more in both entry and corner exit. I have found that as the rear tire temps go up and they grip better I have to increase the rear shock to get the car to rotate and "dance" better. I haven't found the fronts to "wash-out" with understeer with the front shock settings where I have them, but if that changes I can make the adjustments between runs.

“rocwandrer” posted a very good write-up (with info that he got from “Zauskycop”) on adjusting your shocks so I will link it here.<edit: posted inline below>



Wheels/tires. You must use the same diameter and same width as stock. You may go ¼”/6mm difference in offset from stock. Many aftermarket wheels will come in a 40mm offset and those are legal.

00-02
Front – 15x6, 45mm offset (you can go to a 39mm legally)
Rear – 15x6.5, 45mm offset (you can go to a 39mm legally)

03-05
Front – 15x6, 45mm offset (you can go to a 39mm legally)
Rear – 16x7, 45mm offset (you can go to a 39mm legally)

The 99 Miata Sport wheels (5-spoke) are a popular choice for the fronts as they are 15x6 with a 40mm offset and the same hub bore (no hub ring required) and are fairly light. There are a few high dollar front sized wheels out there that are available from Volk and others, but many are too low an offset so you would have to machine them to the correct offset to be legal.

For the rears (00-02), Rota Slipstreams fit (barely) and come in the correct offset and are light. Konig Heliums are available as well and are just as light. Both require hub rings as they are not hub centric. You will also have to get new lug nuts for any of these wheels (Miata included) as the stock lug nuts do not work (unless you get the wheels machined). I know that Rota makes some 16x7 wheels, but I do not know much about other available wheels in that size/offset.

Tires. 225-50/45-15 will fit on the wheels/car with no problem, you just have to find a competent tire-mounter willing to do it. I think that the Hoosier A6 225-45-15 tires are really close/rub the springs in the front with the camber maxed out, so you may have to adjust your crash bolts for them to not rub. Hankook Z-214 225-45-15 fit in the front with a few mm to spare, YMMV.

At the event. Remove your spare, floor mats and any loose items in the car. Be sure your numbers and class letters are the appropriate size and stroke width. 8” high, 1.25” stroke width for numbers; 4” high, .75” stroke width for letters (these are minimums). Make sure they are a high contrast color to your car and nothing really fancy, course workers and T&S will greatly appreciate it. Take out your emergency kit (jack/tools) as well.

Run with as little gas as your car will let you. Some cars can run with the fuel light on, others need a half-tank so they don’t fuel starve in corners. You’ll just have to see how your car is.

I move the rear-view mirror up and out of the way during runs so I am not tempted to look to see if I hit a cone. You can also rotate your side mirrors out as well, not only for the same reason, but some people have said that the sun has hit them just right and had a shot of the sun before, again YMMV, and it’s personal preference.

Move the seat forward and upright so that you can control the pedals and that your wrists rest comfortably on the steering wheel with your arms straight out, this is just a reference. If you find yourself sliding around in the seat too much you can twist the seatbelt a few times before latching it and move the seat forward, this will keep it from loosening. You can also use a CG-Lock which is very effective. I use a lap-harness that mounts to the stock anchor points and not the stock belt. They tuck away for commuting.

Keep your hands at 9 and 3 as much as possible. Do not grip the wheel so that your knuckles turn white. Use your palms to push the wheel up while cornering, don’t pull the wheel down, you get less control and feedback, and if you need to make an adjustment it isn’t as precise. Keep your finger tips light on the back of the steering wheel, they are very sensitive and will give you a lot of information about what the car is doing. Granted, there will be times that you need to “shuffle-steer”, and that’s fine, but try to get your hands back quickly.

See the sticky at the top of the forum for "Andy's Top Ten Tips".
Being smooth in your steering inputs is very important. This does not mean you can’t be fast AND smooth. Do not over brake. The Spyder has awesome brakes and a low polar moment of inertia. You can change out pads if you like, but I have had success with the stock pads. In the dry, treat the ABS like a lockup and back off if they engage, learn to threshold brake. You may get to experience “Ice-mode” where if a tire is off the ground (from a bump for example) while the ABS is engaged, they will release all brake pressure, fun. Use it in the wet, it’s faster.

Often, you will find that a well placed throttle lift instead of braking will be faster. The Spyder can generate a lot of lateral grip, trust it, it will stick. It takes some getting used to, but can pay big dividends in times.

If you drive the Spyder right, you should come back from your runs with your hands shaking. It takes a lot more attention to drive it 10/10ths than many other stock class cars, so you have to really be on your toes, but is one of the most rewarding cars I’ve driven in stock class.
 
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#2 ·
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (07HR350Z @ Feb 27 2008, 04:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Awesome info. Real quick question though, coilovers that have camber adjustment on them you don't need the crash bolts correct?[/b]
Correct. Usually using the camber plates up top. So it moves the entire suspension assembly (wheel/tire/hub/suspension), whereas the crash bolts move the hub (wheel/tire) in closer to the struts. Some coilovers may have enlarged lower bracket holes that allow some play in the camber at the hub as well with the stock bolts.

You can use the crash bolts with camber plates also and probably get around -4° up front if you really needed it.
 
#3 ·
Coilovers will bump you out of stock class and into CSP though.

apexlater, can you point out what kind of lugnuts will be required to work with the aftermarket wheels mentioned?

Thanks!

It may be a fairly low priority item, but you can also replace the battery with a lighter weight one. Some common choices are the Odyssey PC545, Hawker G13EP, and Braille B14115. The Braille batteries used to be fairly expensive but have come down now that Tire Rack carries them.
 
#4 ·
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dboeren @ Feb 27 2008, 06:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
It may be a fairly low priority item, but you can also replace the battery with a lighter weight one. Some common choices are the Odyssey PC545, Hawker G13EP, and Braille B14115. The Braille batteries used to be fairly expensive but have come down now that Tire Rack carries them.[/b]
Not in stock class.
 
#5 ·
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpyderVenom @ Feb 27 2008, 07:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Not in stock class.[/b]
Hmm, I had thought that batteries were considered a free replacement item. But, checking the online rulebook it appears you are correct:

13.STOCK CATEGORY

Alternate components which are normally expendable and considered replacement parts (e.g., engine and wheel bearings, seals, gaskets, filters, belts, bolts, bulbs, batteries, brake rotors, clutch discs, pressure plates, suspension bushings, drivetrain mounts, etc.) may be used provided they are essentially identical to the standard parts (e.g. have the same type, size, hardness, weight, material etc.), are used in the same location, and provide no performance benefit.


Stock class can be a bit silly at times, there are so many REALLY common mods that are forbidden. I didn't realize though that I was supposed to be weighing my original battery so I could make certain another brand wasn't a little bit lighter!
 
#6 ·
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dboeren @ Feb 27 2008, 06:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
apexlater, can you point out what kind of lugnuts will be required to work with the aftermarket wheels mentioned?[/b]

I use THESE

I used to use some "tuner" lug nuts that have a spline drive. But I didn't like the idea of losing a key, and I can just use regular sockets (one less thing to lose/break). They are also fairly light.
 
#7 ·
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rocwandrer @ Feb 28 2008, 02:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ex914 @ Feb 28 2008, 01:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Great post, Wayne....thorough and informative. I vote to make this a sticky. Moderators?

--Doug[/b]
I've been holding off 'till I get a chance to read the original post, but I think that is a great idea. I would like to edit/moderate the thread to cut out discussion and keep on topic information. How do you feel about that, Wayne?
[/b][/quote]


Fine by me. It would be good if it could remain as an informative thread, and specific to CS, where questions can be asked/answered.
 
#8 ·
OK,

I've read thought Wayne's post. I will try to fill in any blanks that came up when I read it, and perhaps provide a contrasting viewpoint here or there, but on the whole an excellent post with no errors, and tons of great stuff!!!



Air filter:
Back along (I can't find them now) someone did dyno testing with multiple runs each with several different air filters and concluded that the toyota factor denso air filter provided the most power. K&N, Denso, FRAM, and I think one other were tested. The K&N was the least powerful. This test was on a stock class spyder, so I consider it a very valid test. I seem to be in the minority here, but I think the air filter is very easy to change, so I actually have a brand new filter I swap in before events, and swap back out after. At the end of the season, that becomes my "street" air filter, and I buy a new "race" filter for next season.

Crash bolts: buy new nuts with the new bolts even though the old nuts fit. buy the washer! put the washer on the nut side.

NEW AMENDMENT 3-5-09: I watched someone torque a bolt wrong a week or so ago, which leads to this addition. When you torque crash bolts, grease the threads and the washers lightly, keep everything clean while assembling, and put the torque wrench on the nut side with the stationary wrench on the the bolt head side.

Camber: loosen the 3 top hat nuts and push the strut in towards the inside of the car for an additional 0.1 degrees of camber or so. changing camber changes toe, so get it realigned immediately after putting the crash bolts in.

Toe: I also use 0 toe all around. If you don't get to be picky with your alignment numbers, I recommend erring on the side of a hair of toe out front and rear. In the front, you will have a side thrust due to the camber which can be countered with a little (teeny tiny) toe out. Braking forces are less in the rear, and driving forces will tend to toe in the rear, as will compression as Wayne mentioned.

Caster: not adjustable in stock class. check to see both sides are within 0.5 degrees of each other. More variance than that is indicative of an accident in your car's history, and bent, broken, or loose parts.

Thrust angle and steer ahead: get the alignment tech to set both to zero. there is no excuse, and not reasonable reason for either to not be zero other than laziness. non zero steer ahead will drive you nuts if you use the spoke positions on the wheel to reference where 9 and 3 are after a hand reposition like I do.

Stagger: The car will handle differently on street tires than on race tires. I run no stagger on the street and I am still alive. I did not find 10mm of stagger to make a damn bit of difference on the street. For race tires, I have run stagger, reverse stagger, and no stagger with race tires. The difference in handling bias is subtle. Pick the stickiest tires you can afford in the best sizes they come in, but don't be afraid to run tires that aren't staggered. Also know that the wider rear wheel means even if you run no stagger, more width of rubber will touch the pavement in the rear.

Edit: another way to look at stagger. the difference due to a stiffer front bar is huge compared to the effect of a little bit of stagger. if you have a bigger than stock front bar, stagger might be less of a worry on the street even for those that think it is a big deal.


Tires: Don't forget pressure gain as the day goes on. You can see over a 10 psi gain over the course of the day depending on how much moisture you have in the air in your tires, and the temperature swings at pavement level.

(more later when i cut and paste from previous posts)


Swaybar: Note that pogo style endlinks like stock and the "high and tight" endlinks that are popular among people here provide a progressive stiffness that reduces the effectiveness of the swaybar. The endlinks that come with the saner bar provide a more direct link, so they are better for racing. they are noisy though.....


Exhaust: The stock exhaust is fairly heavy, but you aren't going to get much power out of changing it. I am going to go ahead and say most of the power and throttle response people claim to gain from a simple cat back exhaust change on this car is placebo effect. If a tiny bit of power is worth the compromise or more noise helps you drive better, go for it! [edit: looks like about 5hp is available between stock and the very most powerful (peak power) custom cat back. if you save 17 lb in the process, that is about 1 equivalent peak hp gained from the lost weight.]

Tire mounting: The warmer the tire is, the easier it is to mount. bring them in on a hot day, and leave them in the sun or a hot car for a few minutes before they are mounted. it makes a huge difference. your tire mounter might not thank you, but he wont turn you away without your tires mounted, or curse at you. [edit, or bend your expensive wheels :mad: :angry: :X ]

fuel: My car will run fine at most events with 1/4 tank showing on the gauge. If the course has a particularly long (circle element) or off camber right turn, I know to run much more fuel. A long event requires more fuel, since you burn a lot idling before a run to keep the engine at operating temp. Others have found they needed as much as 3/8 tank showing on the gauge to avoid fuel starving. this may be tank differences or gauge differences, or both. 87 octane is just fine.

Engine Abuse: You do idle the car up to temp before your first run in each run group, right?!? Running the engine hard at below operating temperature is horribly more abusive to the engine wear surfaces than running it hard at operating temp.....

When to upshift: Use the rev limiter to find the top of a gear if you need to!!!!! A shift in a straight away should be just before the limiter. test it to be sure by occasionally hitting the limiter to give yourself feedback on whether where you think the limiter is really is where it is. Try this until you get used to having the limiter: hit it your first run before each shift. If you still need the shift, try to time the shift for the point on the course the limiter kicked in last run rather than when you think the revs are too high.

If you are up-shifting before 6k, you are giving up time....

At first, downshift when it is convenient and can be done smoothly. It wont feel like it, but the power you gain from downshifting is not enough to offset the time you lose if the shift isn't smooth. Then learn to be smooth (even when it isn't convenient) by using heel toe. It is very contrary to my own intuition, but a non heel toe downshift usually loses time compared to not shifting, even where a heel toe downshift gains a ton of time.

Rear view mirror: At local events, even though it is technically against the rules of stock class, I remove the mirror entirely. It quick releases in seconds from the factory mount, and this provides me the same view of the course as a shorter person would have, and is a negligible weight reduction, so my competitors locally do not mind. At the least, aim it somewhere that doesn't shine light in your eyes, and reduces it's obstruction of the course.

Windows: Keep them clean. If you don't think you need clean side windows, you aren't looking far enough ahead on course.

Seating position: Try moving the seat. You might like it. For the vast majority of people, they find they are faster on course with the seat more upright and further forward than on the street. If you are going to try it, I suggest you drive around the paddock some and continue to move it forward and/or upright until it seems to hinder you a little bit, not just feel weird, then go back some. Run like that for a while, and then see if you don't hate having the seat as far back as you do on the street. At first, I needed to adjust the seat to "race configuration" a few miles before arriving at the event to get used to it, but now I just change the seat before my run. I also found that except for very long trips where I need a varied position, I run the seat forward a click or two (from where I thought was ideal when I first got the car) on the street now for better control.

Brakes: The stock Toyota pads that come on the Spyder are much much better than the stock pads that come on other vehicles. I feel there is not much to gain from after market pads. I switched to EBC Greenstuff, and they are a hair easier to modulate, but the difference is very subtle. If you are good, you can stop the car quicker than the abs, without disabling the abs. get a little rough with the peddle though, and the abs intercedes and reduces your braking power. As Wayne says, treat abs engagement like tire lockup. Try not to get it, back off (a hair!) and reapply (quickly!) if it engages in the dry. Push harder if it engages in the wet. (YMMV) Edit: I've gotten better at it, and now treat abs engagement in the wet the same as I do in the dry, but with a subtle difference in technique (I think the reapply step is a hair longer....?)
Richard
 
#9 ·
My damping post with Tracy's advice moved here for convenience, and updated/edited more:

a little background originally replying to questions asked by shiver:

dampening is to make wet
damping is to provide resistance as a function of velocity (of the suspension vertically in this case)
springs provide resistance proportionate with (or at least as a function of) displacement
dampers turn bump energy into heat, springs store it on the compression stroke and release it on the rebound stroke.

put these simple definitions together and you start to see the functional difference between springs and dampers, which may help some.

In stock class autocross, the springs are not stiff enough to do their job, so we ask the dampers to do some of it for them. The following applies directly to using the dampers to tune what really should be tuned with spring rates and sway bars, but can't be under the rules of stock class autocross racing.

Tracy's excellent comments, pared down (I put my edits and comments in[]):

A lot will have to do with the surface you run on [and autocross vs other activities].

For [autocross] racing ... front rebound is probably your hardest setting. On one side, the higher the rebound, the better the car is at slaloming, and the less weight transfer you will get on acceleration (less push) [too high and you get a push everywhere, not sure if koni yellows will go that high, but my DA's would]. However, the higher it is, the more you will get a push on corner exit and mid turn (interesting how each is opposite huh?) I hated messing with that so on a very slalomy course, I ran [it close to] full stiff. The more sweepers, the softer I ran it [I on the other hand preferred to run it soft enough so I never got a bad push anywhere on course from the damping. I also found, contrary to Tracy's experience, that mid-corner push went with more front rebound].

Rear rebound is fun to play with. Stiffer will cause 2 things. Turn in on braking...to the point of being wildly loose (it is scary but cool Wink) and corner exit at the expense of wheel spin [this I did like. I ran it quite a bit higher than the front to counter the turn in understeer induced by the stiff front bar].

[compression info for those who are interested]

I would experiment with turning up the rear compression, as that will give you the ability to "slide" the rear a bit on acceleration. Balancing the slide with wheel spin will be your quandary there.

Front compression wont be too much to worry about. The more you add, the quicker you will get turn in bite. You will know you are too high when the front slides instead of biting [easiest to figure this out on a bumpy course, since the wash out is more dramatic there]...

Richard

Edit: After observing less experienced drivers "mess around" with damper settings for another season, I have the following comment: Err on the side of too soft. Here is why: Novices have trouble (I did too, and to some degree still do) distinguishing between something that is wrong with the car and something that is wrong with their driving technique. Make adjustments to the car to fix a driving technique, and the problems stack, and get worse. For example, a novice has a driving technique issue, lets say too high a low speed corner entry that feels like a bad push on entry. They adjust damping to fix the bad push on entry, and end up with dramatically less rear grip in high speed corner entry. This leads to them spinning the car more easily in the high speed turns. They fix this with either an adjustment to the car, or more typically, lower corner entry speed in the high speed turns. They just fixed a driving problem with a car adjustment, creating a car problem which they fix with a driver adjustment. This process is frustrating, and the result is both slower, and harmful to the learning curve.
 
#10 ·
My take on a street compromised autocross alignment:

Short version: just go with the best alignment you can for racing, you probably wont regret it

Long version: I thought I wanted to compromise between street use concerns (wear, ultimate braking grip, tramlining, dartiness, etc) and racing concerns (fast). My experience is you can tell the difference on course, but the street compromises are minimal as long as the toe stays near zero one side or the other. Running tons of camber produces a very small decrease in braking ability on a car that will already stop quicker than 99% of the stuff out there, and causes what amounts to a maximum of about 2/32nds of extra tread wear per set of tires. My advice is not to kid yourself into thinking you can compromise the alignment and be happy on the course.

Think of it this way: you pay about $8 per run per tire for race tires to make you faster, why make yourself slower to save $50 per year on street tires? Run max negative camber with 4ea 2 dot bolts in the front, and max negative on factory adjustment in the rear. Don't neglect the slop you can take up by loosening the 3 stut top bolts and pushing in and tightening (which you can do before taking the car in, rather than relying on the alignment tech to do it.)

What to run:

I think it is in here somewhere else, but for toe, I recommend starting with zero toe front and rear, then going from there after driving on the alignment for a few events. I messed with other settings and went back to zero front and rear for CS.

For CS, within the limits of CS spring rates, bars and alignment methods, a little negative camber is better than none, and a lot is a lot better. Run as much camber as you can get. A little toe out both front and rear will be a hair faster than none, but will kill street tires in short order. Choose for yourself on this one.

[edit: personal experience messing with toe and camber. -2.8 degrees of camber and 0 toe will result in a 1/32 spread in wear (more on the inside) in 10k miles on spt's. similar results with rt615's. 1/4" of toe out in the front will ruin 10,000 mile, half worn out spt's in only 1000 miles] lots of camber and a little toe will ruin some tires in short order. lots of camber and zero toe will not hurt a performance tires very bad.
 
#11 ·
More strut tuning suggestions:

Consider the adjusters on the different struts to be not all calibrated the same. Don't assume there is the same increase between 0 and 1/2 turn as there is between 1/2 turn and 1 turn. Don't assume 1/2 turn on one front strut is the same as 1/2 turn on the other. If you have a 2 turn range, don't assume that turning 1 turn from full soft is the same as turning 1 turn from full hard. In this case I can say 100% certain it isn't the same based on recent discussions with Koni rebuilt experts. Always adjust up to the desired setting, not from what it is set on now. If you are reducing the setting, reduce it all the way, then adjust it up to where you want it.

Given a lot of runs for tuning, I would start full soft all around.

Front: Go up in the front by say 1/4 turn increments until you start to get initial turn in understeer on sweepers, then go all the way back down, and up to say 1/8th turn less than what you had when the turn in understeer increased. Try it again. Stay under the point in the rebound adjustment where exit understeer is increased unless you are sure the slight transitional benefit really will make up for the lost front traction on corner exit. If you have enough runs, or can juggle judging multiple things in one run, try adjusting the left side more without adjusting the right side more and evaluating left hand turns vs right turns. Then try the same thing on right hand turns. You might find the ideal setting is different left to right.

Rear: Go up similarly to the front until turn in oversteer is increased. Adjust left and right independently once you are close to the right setting. Figure out where the threshold is. Remember this threshold is grip sensitive when you are undersprung like a stock class spyder. You might need a lower setting in the rain, etc. You might find you want to run more rebound than ideal for grip at the rear (I did). I suggest (and this is not neccessarily the conventional wisdom) tuning this parameter only in slaloms, getting it right for slaloms, and not messing with it too much, even on a not very slalomy course.

Alternately, you can run less front bar, or more front toe out, or more rear toe out to get the same effect. Front toe out decreases straight line grip and stability under braking (with lots of negative camber, a little toe out wont hurt straight line stability), increases tire wear, and had no little or no effect on mid corner to corner exit behavior. rear toe out makes the car less stable/more oversteery everywhere, but has a limited effect at the extreme limits of adhesion. Less front bar makes for ever so slightly less total grip, more need for negative camber, and more 1-tire-fire.

edit: koni recommends not running their dampers for long at within 1/4 turn of full soft or full stiff. The dampers will last longer if you don't use the extreme ends of the adjustment range much.
 
#12 ·
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VAGperformance @ Mar 4 2008, 02:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Apex and Roc, i'd just like to say thank you, thank you, thank you,
I love how in depth y'all are and the fact that this is all specific to the Spyder I'm going to be reading and re-reading all of this thoroughly to improve my knowledge of the Spyder and get an idea of how to drive "right" I've been reading some autocross/track books for beginner's as well but this is so much more relevant (and funner to read) since you both are using the same car and I know drive much much better than I do (being 18 i'm willing to admit almost anyone older than me drives better than myself... though I know I drive better than a majority of most kids my age w/o an interest in cars) it's hard to put a personality or relate to a book written some years ago with a classic porsche as the cover car... Anyways it's pretty late so sorry if the post is a little wierd
but i'll be copying all this to Word for reading in class and where internet isn't available.

I know my car is way beyond c-stock but I want to try auto-x a lot and if I turn out to want to be competetive, I'll try returning the car to a setup to be competetive here rather than spend tons of money trying to be competetive in SM-2...
Looking at this though, I could probably make money by changing my car to C-stock by selling everything that takes me out of it... TTE bumper, MSMB, FSTB, Borla that exits on right, Che Header (reinstall stock header gutted), Sportivo's, etc... well, that is kinda depressing as I do like all those mods but it also saves money in the long run (maybe) by keeping me from spending money on more mods...

Well I have a lot to think on, maybe I should just leave this car as is and get a real cheap spyder to make competetive after college, I'd love to go compete even if I know i'd lose constantly (with current mods in the class they'd put me in), however, I'm afraid i'd break the TTE front end hitting cones, especially after seeing the front end of this guys Z at my college, it's all dented and screwed up on one side, he said he hit about 30 cones doing ~90mph at his last drift event. Which brings me to my next question which is probably difficult to answer or may not be... I know that in auto-x you typically don't get out of second correct, at the speeds I'd be moving would a cone mess up my bumper if I put painter's tape over it to protect the paint (I believe the TTE is somewhat thicker than stock, the section I had to cut out to fit the fog lights is a little under 1/2 a cm thick if memory serves and unbendable by hand, the bumper as a whole felt sturdier than stock, however the last time I was flexing the stock bumper was after a crash.

Okay, I realized i've been rambling and typing this for the last 10-15 minutes so key points sens I don't want to be a PITA to y'all
Key Points
1. Thank You so much for writing this all down for the community, I know I speak for a number of us when I say it is greatly appreciated

2. A few Questions that probably weren't clearly questions
2a. My car is my DD, Assuming I go to a well setup/run auto-x how likely is it that my car will be seriously injured (solo runs)
2b. When I start going to events with my 2 i'll be putting on some toyo T1-R 205F 225R* so i'd like to know would I be able to get a full season out of these with using them as my street tires? I only put about 6,000 miles on my car a year, I mainly use it to go to and from home (120mile round trip) and to the grocery store once every week or two.
2c. I've heard that most Auto-x courses you stay in 1st or 2nd gear the entire time at these speeds if I hit a cone, would it dent/injure my bumper (i'll have it covered in painter's tape so paint will be safe)?
2d. If I go to an SCCA instructional event or to an event with a beginner's class would they let me run without a roll bar? I'd really like to try it out before making the investment though i'll probably be getting the new one with the harness bar and diagonal brace eventually
3. Sorry for all the noob questions and the rambling, I talk/type a lot about things that really interest me.

*I know people have said that this is unnecesary for a stock car, however I live in Ft. Worth Tx most of the year (at TCU) and I can lose grip on my Ziex 912s in 2nd at ~2500 rpms while keeping the throttle input steady when it hasn't rained in several days. The roads are pretty slick in some areas and I want as much rubber on the ground as possible to keep me going in the right direction[/b]
2a you have to do something seriously dumb, or have a very very unlikely mechanical failure on your car, on course to harm your car at a well setup/run autocross.
2b I don't know, since I have no first hand experience with those tires, but running close to zero toe is a good start, and never doing burnouts/lifting when you get one tire fire will help a lot too.
2c I do not use painters tape. My wife (co-driver) can go an entire season without hitting cones. I get a great run, dig for some more and hit a cone once in a while. I even play "try to hit that cone I wasn't getting close enough to on the apex." I probably hit 6-10 cones a season. I have one scratch from cone damage, it is in front of the rear wheel well (the most common place for damage with experienced drivers). Very cold, very tall, heavy base cones could crack cold plastic or fiberglass bodywork. old cones with lots of sand and rocks imbedded can scratch your car. The short answer is, if you are worried about it, drive less agressively, come at it from the bottom as we say, and you can run a year without hitting a cone. The guys who cover their cars in blue tape every event never get damage, but it is a lot of work, a lot of times, for minimal reward.
2d if there is a local rule that is a problem for you, just pull off the TTE bumper and MSMB and run csp. I don't think anywhere using anything like scca rules requires rollbars in csp for autocross. In fact, that is where I would recommend you run for your first season at least. Depending on who is local to you, it might be possible for you to clean up in csp with just driver skill improvements, and that way you get to see how much you like it without losing the sportivo, etc.

oh, and ziex 912's are garbage, but will be just fine to start autocrossing on.
 
#13 ·
I'm more worried about rock chip damage on the fender lips than anything a cone could do, so I apply a few thin strips of racer's tape to the aft parts of the fender lips, and on the leading edge of the side air intakes. Also, I tape up the outside rearview mirrors for good measure...I don't know how vulnerable they are on the Spyder, but they got all pecked up on my 944 from rocks/sand thrown off the front tires. Racer's tape comes in lots of colors, so you might be able to "sorta" match your paint. A good mail-order source is IO Port Racing.

I tend to smack about one cone per event, and usually a thin film of "cone plastic" gets transferred to your bodywork. It peels off when you rub it with your thumb, or you can use some wax/polish product to remove it. As previous poster said, it's the really dirty cones that can scratch.

So hit only the clean ones. :icon_thumright:

--Doug
 
#14 ·
VAG, you're gonna love it. Best value in motorsports by far.

One more tip: when you run the course, if there's a section where you feel you're between gears, go with the higher (or taller) gear. It may feel as though you're a little out of the powerband, but when you're learning it's good to minimize your shifting to better concentrate on smoothness, line, turn-in points, etc. Just try to keep the speed and the flow going.

--Doug
 
#15 ·
...adding to the experience base here:

I'm doing well this year with the following C-Stock setup:

koni yellow / single adjustables, 1.5 turns down from full stiff
addco 1" w/ H&T endlinks
crash bolts

Front: 2" negative camber, 0 toe
Rear: 1.5" negative camber, 0 toe

stock wheels, 205/50 Kumho V710s all-around, all @ 29psi

puma driving shoes
bare hands
Ferrari-branded Bell helmet
..and a glass of Scotch


...i've gotten ice-mode from the ABS once or twice with this setup, slight understeer if you turn in too quickly, trail braking is a must.
 
#17 ·
I would look at Che's swaybars, or the Whiteline's. The Whitelines have alot of adjustability, but I am unsure of their size.

The other option is to make a NASCAR sytle swaybar, like the ones from Speedway. I was going to make one, but I wasn't able to engineer the same stiffness that the 1-1/8" Saner bar allowed.

It took about 2 months for my rear Konis to come into stock, maybe more.

I assume you both already have the crash bolts for the front? I would make that a priority also if you haven't yet.
 
#18 ·
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (apexlater @ Jun 17 2008, 08:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
I would look at Che's swaybars, or the Whiteline's. The Whitelines have alot of adjustability, but I am unsure of their size.

The other option is to make a NASCAR sytle swaybar, like the ones from Speedway. I was going to make one, but I wasn't able to engineer the same stiffness that the 1-1/8" Saner bar allowed.

It took about 2 months for my rear Konis to come into stock, maybe more.

I assume you both already have the crash bolts for the front? I would make that a priority also if you haven't yet.[/b]
che (cusco knock-off) and whitelines are both 22 mm - the che only has hole while the whiteline as per apex said has more adjustments

if you are gonna be playing in c-stock - i would recommend the addco bar and just make sure to get some twosrus wndlinks because of the stock endlink stud is not enough

3 peice nascar style sway bar - two thumbs up - former local c-stock spyder is mostly in the top ten... easy replacement of bar width
 
#19 ·
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Boo Boo @ Jun 17 2008, 10:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (apexlater @ Jun 17 2008, 08:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I would look at Che's swaybars, or the Whiteline's. The Whitelines have alot of adjustability, but I am unsure of their size.

The other option is to make a NASCAR sytle swaybar, like the ones from Speedway. I was going to make one, but I wasn't able to engineer the same stiffness that the 1-1/8" Saner bar allowed.

It took about 2 months for my rear Konis to come into stock, maybe more.

I assume you both already have the crash bolts for the front? I would make that a priority also if you haven't yet.[/b]
che (cusco knock-off) and whitelines are both 22 mm - the che only has hole while the whiteline as per apex said has more adjustments

if you are gonna be playing in c-stock - i would recommend the addco bar and just make sure to get some twosrus wndlinks because of the stock endlink stud is not enough

3 peice nascar style sway bar - two thumbs up - former local c-stock spyder is mostly in the top ten... easy replacement of bar width

[/b][/quote]


addco is the biggest readily available. big enough for race tires on stock struts, but probably not race tires with stiffer dampers.
 
#20 ·
I called Saner last year. He says he still makes the swaybar but I didn't order. I know PPE had some issues with him. I run in CSP in Richland Wa. I also run the Toyo Proxs RA1s which I like since they wear so well and are a bit cheaper on my pocket book (and they perfom so well in the rain). I have replaced the intake and exhaust with exception of the muffler. I agree with the conclusion that the toyota exhaust is about as good as any aftermarket system except for weight. Do all you can do to stiffen the car, put on good tires, get some driving instructions, and have fun with one of the greatest C class cars available.

Now if I could just get a little more power!
 
#21 ·
I thought I should link this thread on tires, as it has some really good info.

http://spyderchat.com/forums/index.php?sho...&hl=hoosier

And while we are talking about it. What pressures are you guys using with the 225-45-15 Hoosier A6? I was using 36psi all around on the Hankooks, but I've read some different opinions on what works well with the Hoosiers, specifically on the Spyder.
 
#22 ·
Any updates on a "NASCAR" style front bar? Or new FSB prefrences? What exhaust is everyone using?
1" addco is still out there new for cheap. 1" or 1.125" saner are available used as people move away from stock class.

NASCAR bars have been done on the spyder. There isn't (to my knowledge) a kit available for our car, but it is as simple as:

measuring the center section length required for the bent arms you choose (straight arms won't clear, pick the most bent you can get, or buy straight ones and bend them).

measuring an ideal arm length (offset equal to the stock offset is probably best)

making mounting blocks, or buying bushings that fit the stock brackets

bolting it up

Don't forget to weld up the body brackets to prevent failure.
 
#23 ·
The evolution driving school was key to my winning in C stock. Over and above any of the things listed above. All the posts above covered the other big gain stuff. Onto smaller gains - A thing I can recommend is good clean oil - use full-synthetic. I like the european formula stuff - look to see if matches mercedes or porsche specifications-. The oil is not of the same magnitude as a good alignment, or R compound tires - but it didn't hurt. A really hard core question is: for stock class is the
TRD inlet duct legal? It is not an intake as it is pre-airbox and filter- it really is just a replacement snorkle - if it is legal for C stock - do it and loose the stock snorkle and hose.
 
#24 ·
Not legal. In stock class you can change the filter but the airbox and piping must stay stock. The rules also don't allow adding any other ducting.
 
#27 ·
Opinions on the 225 square Hoosier setup? I'm guessing a huge front bar is on my short shopping list :)
225 square is good with the A6s. A larger front bar is a must to keep the rear planted and make turn-in/transitions better, and will also help mitigate some camber loss.

If I had to do it again, I would try the 275s on the back with the 225 on front. I never had a problem with the front sticking with the 225 A6s, but still had wheelspin. The 275s might help that (or make it worse, dunno) and you would have to make alignment/shock adjustments to compensate, "Joe" tried it so maybe he will chime in.

I ran the 205 V710s at our final points event last year and really liked how they felt on the back. Very little wheelspin, but the front just wasn't enough grip and understeered alot. I wouldn't hesitate to run 225s in the front and 205s in the rear. Yes, REVERSE STAGGER!!!!!

Or maybe even put the 225 Hoosiers in the front and the 205 V710 in the back. But then again, I'm weird like that.
 
#26 ·
I have run the 225/45-15 A6s on both 15x8 and 15x9 6ULs - all 4 corners - and love the setup. I get over 1/2" wider contact patch with the 15x9 wheels over the 15x8 with the same tire.

As far as front bar, I am running the Saner 3 way adjustable up front, no rear bar. If you contact Saner, they still sell new bars for our cars.

There is another thread on our test of 275/35-15 A6s on the 6UL 15x9s with pics here:

http://spyderchat.com/forums/showth...heel-Clearance&p=686217&viewfull=1#post686217
 
#28 ·
This is a stock class sticky thread. the wheels and (no) rear bar you mention are not stock class legal. It seems Saner doesn't mail parts anymore (they told me so). Many people report that they will still take your money however (they didn't take mine, just said they don't do shipping anymore.)
 
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