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Can the camshaft on a 2zz be replaced in the car?

3099 Views 124 Replies 13 Participants Last post by  ozone
Hello,
I'm having some issues with my 2zz swapped MR2. The valves are making a lot of noise. I have removed the valve cover and inspected the camshaft and measured the clearances. There is a little bit of excessive wear on the #3 and #4 intake lobes of the camshaft. Honestly, it doesn't seem like enough to make that kind of noise, but it's definitely coming from the valve train. So what I'm asking is:
1. Could you help me diagnose the problem?
2. If I have to replace the camshaft, rocker arms or something up there, can the cams be removed without removing the engine? The front cover is pretty close to the side of the car.

To get the specifics on the problem you can watch this video: AG 036 MR2 Spyder valve train problem (Help!)

Thanks.
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Funny you should mention that, I have already ordered a leak-down tester. But how can I get pressures 50PSI OVER the spec?

Timing is a good idea. It would explain why none of my other remedies have worked.
Should I have started a different post? To me this is all part of trying to find the problem, but the title is "Can the camshafts be replaced with the engine in the car."
Funny you should mention that, I have already ordered a leak-down tester. But how can I get pressures 50PSI OVER the spec?

Timing is a good idea. It would explain why none of my other remedies have worked.
The problem with compression testers is the value is not very accurate but they are a good diagnostic tool if something is obviously wrong. Some read high and some read low combined with how you perform the test. What is important with a compression test is even values across all cylinders. It can detect a major loss of one cylinder due to various causes and for performing a wet compression test adding oil into the cylinder. It is not good for determining the compression book values precisely unless there is a major deviation like extremely low compression.

The information I’m going to give you is anecdotal hearsay from what I read on various boards that share the same engines. When I was replacing my intake camshaft, I was worried about the chain on the crank moving out of position by one tooth because it was reported on the Celica board that this had happened to a few when they let the chain relax from below. What ended up happening from what I read is some experienced the timing to be off by one tooth. It will not throw a check engine light, but the car will run a little rough with popping from the exhaust with a rough idle.
Therefore, I made sure to support the timing chain using a rope tied to the hood of the car so it does not fall of the teeth.
If for any reason you timing is off you could have the poor running engine you are experiencing so I would eliminate that possibility.
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Should I have started a different post? To me this is all part of trying to find the problem, but the title is "Can the camshafts be replaced with the engine in the car."
I wouldn’t start a new post because all of your history is on this thread which are important clues. if you feel the need to I’m not stopping you.
I bet it's mechanical timing. Improper mech timing especially intake closing too soon or exhaust closing too late can absolutely cause high compression. The excessive blow by is worrying.
Ok, thank you for the explanation. So next question. Doesn't this have to be checked with the front cover removed? Can that even be done with the engine in the car?

This may be another clue. When the engine goes into lift, I can hear it very distinctly. Like there is no doubt from the engine noise that it hit lift. But frankly, I don't feel much difference in acceleration. Just sounds louder. I've heard some people describe it a little like a turbo. Is it actually quite subtle?
You need to get a service manual for the 2ZZ engine and study it to know how to check for timing. It is very specific.
Lift is very distinct and you can certainly feel it. If you are not feeling it then something is off like your intake cam being wiped.
Before I would do anything I would find out if your crank pressure is high and if the shops diagnosis is correct.
Is this a MWR sourced 2ZZ?
... I don't feel much difference in acceleration. Just sounds louder. I've heard some people describe it a little like a turbo. Is it actually quite subtle?
You are not supposed to feel a kick when lift engages. The engagement point is ideally where the two torque curves cross over. What lift does do is extend your torque curve up beyond 8k RPM, which is where the extra power comes from.
Ok, thank you for the explanation. So next question. Doesn't this have to be checked with the front cover removed? Can that even be done with the engine in the car?

This may be another clue. When the engine goes into lift, I can hear it very distinctly. Like there is no doubt from the engine noise that it hit lift. But frankly, I don't feel much difference in acceleration. Just sounds louder. I've heard some people describe it a little like a turbo. Is it actually quite subtle?
When lift engages, the sound of the motor changes very audibly, and you do feel a kick, like a turbo.

To check the timing, remove the valve cover, turn the crankshaft to top dead center on cylinder 1, check the alignment marks on the camshaft gears. This can be confusing because there are two sets of marks, one for 1zz, the other for 2zz. Refer to the factory service manual.

PS. The 2zz lift kick illustrated, from this recent spyderchat thread.

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You are not supposed to feel a kick when lift engages. The engagement point is ideally where the two torque curves cross over. What lift does do is extend your torque curve up beyond 8k RPM, which is where the extra power comes from.
@rmeller I've taken the liberty of using a green sharpie to mark up the dyno chart and show what the crossover rpm should be, according to your theory. The answer is... Alabama.

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Ok, so comments on all of the comments.

1. I have the shop manual in the form of alldatadiy.com. Not the easiest to use, but it is there.
2. I have looked at the camshafts and although there is a little bit too much wear on the high lift lobes of #3 and #4 cylinders, it's very mild and does not account for the problems I'm having. All clearance are in spec.
3. Yes, the motor was sourced from MWR.
4. My lift feels more like RMeller describes. The power keeps climbing but not a kick. Definitely loud though.
5. If the timing marks are correct on the camshafts, how do I know it's not one tooth off on the crankshaft?
6. I'm not sure how you rotate your engine. I couldn't get anything on the crank bolt except from underneath and then I couldn't see what was going on up top. I usually bump the starter.

If you're interested, you can see the whole swap on my youtube channel "antimatter garage." I have something like 8 episodes devoted to my swap. The videos are long so watch on 1.25 speed or something. Just FYI.

Again, thank you for the help. This has got me quite stressed because our workhorse car (1999 Toyota Solara V6 manual) has 359,000 miles on it and it's starting to idle poorly. I'm a little concerned it may have a bad head gasket and I'm afraid to look. If I have to take it offline, that will leave me with, let's see, oh yeah, a bicycle.
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4. My lift feels more like RMeller describes. The power keeps climbing but not a kick. Definitely loud though.
5. If the timing marks are correct on the camshafts, how do I know it's not one tooth off on the crankshaft?
6. I'm not sure how you rotate your engine. I couldn't get anything on the crank bolt except from underneath and then I couldn't see what was going on up top. I usually bump the starter.
4. Definitely there is an instant increase in torque (also rate of acceleration) and this is shown on the typical dyno chart as well as felt as a kick on the butt dyno. Maybe your butt dyno is out of calibration.

5. If you have turned the crankshaft to tdc cyl1 and the camshaft marks align correctly then the chain is not one tooth off. How do you know if cyl1 is at tdc. Align the notch in the pulley with the 0 on the timing indicator on the timing cover. Like so. (Picture taken on actual 2zz engine).
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6. Yes the head of the bolt is very close to the frame. There is any number of ways you can get a 19mm hex tool onto the pulley bolt. An offset box wrench could do the trick. Worse comes to worse, you lower the engine by taking it off its mount. This should not be necessary.

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@rmeller I've taken the liberty of using a green sharpie to mark up the dyno chart and show what the crossover rpm should be, according to your theory...
So, that is funny. Did they raise the engagement point just to make sure that you knew that you were getting something for the extra money?
So, that is funny. Did they raise the engagement point just to make sure that you knew that you were getting something for the extra money?
Yes absolutely - their marketing team must have found that the lift kick is addictive and the main selling point for this engine. For once, regrettably, marketing won out over engineering. Every other time it's the engineers who have their way with something completely non-sensible.

PS. Possibly also they wanted to differentiate the toyota lift from vtec, which has a smooth engagement in general. Look for the simple-minded this could make vvt-li seem superior to vtec, because you actually feel it.
Ah, marked on the outside. Of course. Thank you for the info. I'll take a look tomorrow.

Pretty sure my butt dyno is ok. I really don't think I'm getting that kick, but next time I drive it, I'll 'remeasure'.
Understood. Thank you. Should be easy to see with the valve cover off.
Ok, so comments on all of the comments.

1. I have the shop manual in the form of alldatadiy.com. Not the easiest to use, but it is there.
2. I have looked at the camshafts and although there is a little bit too much wear on the high lift lobes of #3 and #4 cylinders, it's very mild and does not account for the problems I'm having. All clearance are in spec.
3. Yes, the motor was sourced from MWR.
4. My lift feels more like RMeller describes. The power keeps climbing but not a kick. Definitely loud though.
5. If the timing marks are correct on the camshafts, how do I know it's not one tooth off on the crankshaft?
6. I'm not sure how you rotate your engine. I couldn't get anything on the crank bolt except from underneath and then I couldn't see what was going on up top. I usually bump the starter.

If you're interested, you can see the whole swap on my youtube channel "antimatter garage." I have something like 8 episodes devoted to my swap. The videos are long so watch on 1.25 speed or something. Just FYI.

Again, thank you for the help. This has got me quite stressed because our workhorse car (1999 Toyota Solara V6 manual) has 359,000 miles on it and it's starting to idle poorly. I'm a little concerned it may have a bad head gasket and I'm afraid to look. If I have to take it offline, that will leave me with, let's see, oh yeah, a bicycle.
no need to settle for the Alldata version of the manual. It is a free download in the files section of the Spyder facebook group
MFster, I 👏👏👏 you for using the "shade tree method" of loosening the crank pulley bolt! Did you by any chance pull the IG fuse or relay, or "just" quick wrist it?
I just did the cylinder leak down test. Well sort of. I ran into problems with that too. So as usual, opinions on that are welcome. Here are the results:
Input pressure 75 PSI
Output pressure:
#1 74.5 PSI
#2 74.5 PSI
#3 74.5 PSI
#4 74.5 PSI

Honestly there was so little difference between the two I'm calling it 74.5 PSI. Looked almost 75 PSI.
Ok, here are the problems. First, I did the test cold. Forgot to warm it up before removing all the stuff from the engine. I figured if it was good cold, it'd be better warm. Second, at some point I heard the air escaping from the cylinder I was testing. That is to say through the spark plug hole. Because, theoretically the spark plug hole is plugged with the tester, I assumed the hose was leaking. It seemed strange to me that if the hose was leaking, that the output pressure would still be so high. So I took it out, put my thumb over the hole and brought up the pressure. With the input pressure at 70 PSI (thumb couldn't hold 75 PSI reliably) I let my thumb relax. (NOTE: with my thumb over the hole at 70PSI, I did not notice any leaks from the hose. So perhaps the leak was from not being able to tighten the fitting into the cylinder due to hose twist.) As the air leaked out from under my thumb, both pressures dropped evenly until they got to 65 PSI (5 PSI lower than the input setting). At that point the the input pressure stabilized at 65PSI while the output continued to drop as I released pressure.

Please tell me how valid this test is. My gut tells me the cylinders are tight. Based on what I did, I think if there was 10% or more leaking, I would have seen during the test, what I saw in my thumb test, but I didn't. Both gauges looked to be at 75 PSI for the duration. I even walked away and got a drink of water and came back to see what was going on. They were still both at 75 PSI.

I'm using an OTC tester.

Next, I'll pull the valve cover and check the timing chain marks to see if I'm off one tooth.
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