Just curious, how long does it take to tune a car on a dyno? My car is N/A with all the basic bolt-ons and has a pretuned E-manage map to begin with. Are we talking about less than an hour (on average)?
mkawada
It shouldn't take longer than an hour with your setup. Having said that, use Murphy's Law and double it. So two hours on the dyno should give you a very nice tune, assuming your "tuner" knows his 
. If not, it's a crap shoot and you could leave with a worse tune than you drove in on.
Gino
Edited for profanity - carl
. If not, it's a crap shoot and you could leave with a worse tune than you drove in on.Gino
Edited for profanity - carl
Depending on the engine management being used and the tuners (or your) familiarity with it the tune will take different time frames.
For example I can start from scratch with a DSMLink on a DSM and have it tuned well within an hour. Give me an AEM EMS and it is going to take much longer.
For example I can start from scratch with a DSMLink on a DSM and have it tuned well within an hour. Give me an AEM EMS and it is going to take much longer.
I had an appointment for dynotuning today...
The tuner said I would need an extra bung welded onto my PPE header so he could use a wideband to tune it. Is this true (about needing an extra bung for the wideband) or is there another way to tune the car?
HOWEVER, the tuners couldn't find their E-manage software so it didn't really matter. :?
The tuner said I would need an extra bung welded onto my PPE header so he could use a wideband to tune it. Is this true (about needing an extra bung for the wideband) or is there another way to tune the car?
HOWEVER, the tuners couldn't find their E-manage software so it didn't really matter. :?
I would buy an LC-1, follow the installation steps I posted somewhere, enabling you to use it as both a wideband and a narrowband (at the same time). Put it where the narrowband sensor already is. Then go to the tuner with it installed and checked out. Spend another $200 if you want an AFR guage.
The tuner will need to know these voltages:
0v = 7.35 afr
5v = 22.39 afr
Check the wideband analog output with a voltmeter as described in Innovate Motorsports install guide before going to the tuner and of course, do the calibration. You can check the digital serial output using Logworks (software that comes with it) ahead of time, too.
This is extra work for you, but you get to keep the sensor (and optional gauge). No extra bung needed either. All set up to tune, monitor, and tune again perhaps.
The tuner will need to know these voltages:
0v = 7.35 afr
5v = 22.39 afr
Check the wideband analog output with a voltmeter as described in Innovate Motorsports install guide before going to the tuner and of course, do the calibration. You can check the digital serial output using Logworks (software that comes with it) ahead of time, too.
This is extra work for you, but you get to keep the sensor (and optional gauge). No extra bung needed either. All set up to tune, monitor, and tune again perhaps.
Or just take it to any muffler shop and pay $20 for a standard O2 bung to be installed. (18mm x1.5pitch)
You want it BEFORE the cat. for best accuracy.
You want it BEFORE the cat. for best accuracy.
dyno should have a wideband sensor.. it's good to have your own so you can be extra sure the dyno's is working properly..
Dont put it so close to the cat that removing the cat takes the bung with it.
It doesnt matter how close or far the WB is from the cat.
But no closer to the turbo exit than 16"-18" due to heat. Unless its an NTK sensor. A Bosch sensor needs a copper heat sink if its subjected to more than 1450*F (800*C)
Dont put any WB within 4-6 inches of any other sensor either. The gas flow is disturbed and the readings can be affected.
This has been demonstrated over and over when the stock O2's are placed next to one another in the downpipe of a turbo conversion. One reads lean while the other reads rich and they cycle back and forth until the ECU pitches a CEL.
It doesnt matter how close or far the WB is from the cat.
But no closer to the turbo exit than 16"-18" due to heat. Unless its an NTK sensor. A Bosch sensor needs a copper heat sink if its subjected to more than 1450*F (800*C)
Dont put any WB within 4-6 inches of any other sensor either. The gas flow is disturbed and the readings can be affected.
This has been demonstrated over and over when the stock O2's are placed next to one another in the downpipe of a turbo conversion. One reads lean while the other reads rich and they cycle back and forth until the ECU pitches a CEL.
this is where i have my o2 sensor bungs....
there is also one right at the top of the down pipe, but i have muffler cement closed that as it would be to close and too hot....
If your staying N.A. I'm not sure if the expense of a WB is justified.
Its been proven problematic if the NB O2's are in-line but even if offset like the Aussie's are - think about how far into the gas stream the tips protrude.
If both tips are in the center of a straight pipe then it doesnt matter if they're offset 30*, 90* or even 180*. At minimum, the forward tip will create turbulence if not actually split/divert the stream around the downstream sensor.
I have seen applicatons where the NB O2's were side-by-side in the radius of a curve and that was reported to work OK.
A NB O2 is somewhat like a lightswitch and doesnt have good resolution too far on either side of 14.67. It switches rich/lean at .45 volts.
Yes, its true a NB display can indicate richer or leaner conditions visually but the stock ECU doesnt care because all its trying to do is maintain a stoichmetric A/F ratio to keep the main cat at peak efficiency.
Because the gas pulses from all 4 cylinders are combined instead of separate like they are in the stock location in the exhaust manifold when the downstream sensor reports LEAN, the ECU adds fuel then the leading sensor will report RICH and the ECU will lean out that 2-cylinder bank. However, the leading bank wasnt truly rich to start with so now its lean...back and forth it goes with each bank alternately and falsely reporting RICH/LEAN conditions.
If the NB O2's are movewd away from the stock location (pre-turbo) then your far better off running only one NB sensor and tying the two signals together such as jumping ECU pins E4-12 to E4-21. You also have to emulate the heater circuit to avoid P0135&155 DTC's...
OR
You could feed the WB's 0-1v output to the ECU and not run ANY NB's at all. Need to make sure there arent any ground offsets or the signal will never be right and you'll have to trick both heater circuits now.
OR
Get a standalone and run no NB at all and not have to worry about CEL's but that may require a tuner which may be a problem on an island.
Its been proven problematic if the NB O2's are in-line but even if offset like the Aussie's are - think about how far into the gas stream the tips protrude.
If both tips are in the center of a straight pipe then it doesnt matter if they're offset 30*, 90* or even 180*. At minimum, the forward tip will create turbulence if not actually split/divert the stream around the downstream sensor.
I have seen applicatons where the NB O2's were side-by-side in the radius of a curve and that was reported to work OK.
A NB O2 is somewhat like a lightswitch and doesnt have good resolution too far on either side of 14.67. It switches rich/lean at .45 volts.
Yes, its true a NB display can indicate richer or leaner conditions visually but the stock ECU doesnt care because all its trying to do is maintain a stoichmetric A/F ratio to keep the main cat at peak efficiency.
Because the gas pulses from all 4 cylinders are combined instead of separate like they are in the stock location in the exhaust manifold when the downstream sensor reports LEAN, the ECU adds fuel then the leading sensor will report RICH and the ECU will lean out that 2-cylinder bank. However, the leading bank wasnt truly rich to start with so now its lean...back and forth it goes with each bank alternately and falsely reporting RICH/LEAN conditions.
If the NB O2's are movewd away from the stock location (pre-turbo) then your far better off running only one NB sensor and tying the two signals together such as jumping ECU pins E4-12 to E4-21. You also have to emulate the heater circuit to avoid P0135&155 DTC's...
OR
You could feed the WB's 0-1v output to the ECU and not run ANY NB's at all. Need to make sure there arent any ground offsets or the signal will never be right and you'll have to trick both heater circuits now.
OR
Get a standalone and run no NB at all and not have to worry about CEL's but that may require a tuner which may be a problem on an island.
could this be the problem with my poor idle then?
should i make both plugs to one (the first) 02 sensor?
should i make both plugs to one (the first) 02 sensor?
Holy carp! I didnt even put two and two together.
In a word, Yes.
Closed loop operations such as warm idle stalling and other off-boost driveability problems are known to be caused by competing O2 signals caused by proximity to one another.
I havent run a single O2 in a couple years and when I did I used the PPE harness with a 30ohm10watt resistor in it.
Search for "O2 MOD" and read thru PE turbo threads.
Contact Paul@PPE about the harness.
In a word, Yes.
Closed loop operations such as warm idle stalling and other off-boost driveability problems are known to be caused by competing O2 signals caused by proximity to one another.
I havent run a single O2 in a couple years and when I did I used the PPE harness with a 30ohm10watt resistor in it.
Search for "O2 MOD" and read thru PE turbo threads.
Contact Paul@PPE about the harness.
Well, I had the bung welded onto the cat pipe today. It's about 6" away from the PPE collector o2 sensor. The shop did not have any bung plugs left so they welded a piece of metal into what looks like a spark plug non-fouler to plug the whole.
Next up: some dyno tuning!
![Image]()
In the meantime, I also had a new exhaust tip (slanted to the right) welded on. A lot more 8) than the previous tip!
![Image]()
Next up: some dyno tuning!
In the meantime, I also had a new exhaust tip (slanted to the right) welded on. A lot more 8) than the previous tip!
ok found the following info:
The first O2 sensor blocks the flow of air over the second O2 sensor because of it's poor position directly behind the first. You need to go to your ecu, cut E4 21's wire and splice the end of the wire from the ecu into E4 12 wire. Basically you are wiring first O2 sensor (E4 12) wire into 2nd O2 ecu pin (E4 21) so now both readings will be from E4 12 (first O2). You will not have to do anything with wire coming from O2 to the ECU.
ok, quick question, by doing this, witch o2 sensor is it reading from?
standing at the rear of the car, looking at the engine, the plug that is on the right or the one on the left?
im asking this because i'd rather have the the one that it is reading from in the front of the other 02 sensor, so it get the better flow...
The first O2 sensor blocks the flow of air over the second O2 sensor because of it's poor position directly behind the first. You need to go to your ecu, cut E4 21's wire and splice the end of the wire from the ecu into E4 12 wire. Basically you are wiring first O2 sensor (E4 12) wire into 2nd O2 ecu pin (E4 21) so now both readings will be from E4 12 (first O2). You will not have to do anything with wire coming from O2 to the ECU.
ok, quick question, by doing this, witch o2 sensor is it reading from?
standing at the rear of the car, looking at the engine, the plug that is on the right or the one on the left?
im asking this because i'd rather have the the one that it is reading from in the front of the other 02 sensor, so it get the better flow...
A tailpipe sniffer on mine read .5 point leaner than pre-cat sample.
Probably not critical for an N.A. engine.
Probably not critical for an N.A. engine.
STOCK O2 Sensor Locations
B1S1 – Monitors the outside cylinders 1&4 and is located on the passenger side - Fuse block E4-12
B1S2 – Monitors the main cat down by drivers side rear wheel.
B2S1 – Monitors the middle cylinders 2&3 and is located on the drivers side - Fuse block E4-21
Black wires - heater circuit - no polarity
Blue - O2 signal
White - Ground
The sensors can be swapped with each other. Manifold to post-main cat and left to right
im guessing thats for a US car...cos here in australia we sit on the right/rite side of the car....lol....
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