How did you get the larger Honda axle to fit in the MR2 hub? I can see the TSX outers clearing the spindle because they're narrower with no tone ring. Without a tone ring you lose abs for those who have it.

The axles are different lengths. The passenger TSX axle length is available on Autozone. What did the passenger side measure out to with male inner? The rsx and civic si axles are an exact match lengthwise to the insane axles and the ones recommended by N1 source.

 

How did you get the larger Honda axle to fit in the MR2 hub? I can see the TSX outers clearing the spindle because they're narrower with no tone ring. Without a tone ring you lose abs for those who have it.

The axles are different lengths. The passenger TSX axle length is available on Autozone. What did the passenger side measure out to with male inner? The rsx and civic si axles are an exact match lengthwise to the insane axles and the ones recommended by N1 source.

I’m using n1 hubs. Yes the si/rsx axle is longer and it’s not actually ideal, but with the spacer it “fits”. My setup is better for stock length control arms. If you get battle version and start adjusting camber from the control arm probably not a good idea with the double tsx passenger setup. Axles are equal lengths with the male portion being in the diff. Javi is using the same combo actually.

I have abs by running the rear wires to the front sensors, this setup should theoretically eliminate ice mode.

 

Yeah if I go this direction I would not be using the N2 spacer. It's a bad bandaid fix.

Do you happen to have compressed axle lengths for each side? I'm not running abs right now, so tsx axles may be a perfect solution. I'm guessing 04-08?

 

Yes 04-08 tsx and sorry I do not know the length. My car is not slammed and the axles are neither compressed or over extended.

 

Geometry changes over bumps, curbs, and crests on track. Avoiding binding at the horizontal position is as important as having an axle too short at full droop. The TSX axle is a full inch shorter on the passenger side.

For reference:

TSX passenger axle is 21.69" compressed.

RSX-S passenger axle is 22.76" compressed (same as insane passenger side)

06+ Civic Si driver's side is 25.04" compressed (same as insane driver's side)

N1 recommended driver's side 10257N for (non Si axle) is 24.41" compressed. have to add in their spacer thickness to compare

N1 recommended passenger's side is 7065N (Prelude) is 22.65" compressed have to add in their spacer thickness to compare

 

Geometry changes over bumps, curbs, and crests on track. Avoiding binding at the horizontal position is as important as having an axle too short at full droop. The TSX axle is a full inch shorter on the passenger side.

For reference:

TSX passenger axle is 21.69" compressed.

RSX-S passenger axle is 22.76" compressed (same as insane passenger side)

06+ Civic Si driver's side is 25.04" compressed (same as insane driver's side)

N1 recommended driver's side 10257N for (non Si axle) is 24.41" compressed. have to add in their spacer thickness to compare

N1 recommended passenger's side is 7065N (Prelude) is 22.65" compressed have to add in their spacer thickness to compare

My setup is the same setup on Javi’s car (N1). He tells people to do the more “enthusiast” way of doing it. Most people aren’t comfortable buying 3 axles and taking 2 apart to make one.

I have no issues at bump, droop, or on track.

like I said, this setup is better for stock length control arms, if you are going to adjust camber from the control arm, you are going to want a longer axle.

im not sure your numbers are very accurate on the si axle. It’s only about an inch longer

 

Civic Si number is listed on Autozone's website. All their numbers have been spot on. We buy OEM axles for our race cars, but we used their numbers for comparison on different swaps. Their numbers have always been perfect match.

For your left axle I don't have a comparison because you used a right but added the male end. Maybe next time you have it out you could post a compressed length if you don't mind.

Depending on the driver's side length I might go your route. I haven't gone with N1's yet because I didn't want to turn down the outers for tone rings. I will be adding Bosch ABS later.

 

Yeah I can get some measurements next time I pull it apart. I had the parts laying around to compare, the oem si axle was about an inch longer than the tsx with a male joint.

so far everything has been great! Like I said I was concerned about axle geometry on both sides so I checked full bump and droop, nothing abnormal, they look like they were made for the car.

stock length rear arms, with proper rear geometry with them still having slight / \ angles

 

@Petah78

I have not done this yet as I haven't wanted to turn down the outer hubs to fit and then add an 80mm OD x 70mm ID tone ring.

The possible solution based on lengths are one RSX-S passenger side and one 06+ Civic Si driver side with the N1 hubs. Outers would need to be turned down to clear the spindles. That's why N1 supplies a spacer.

The OD of the stock MR2 spindles are smaller. I am currently running the insane axles. But, the price is not reasonable when you need replacements. We have proven out stock Honda axles over decades of endurance racing.

Best solution may be TeeMS's setup if you don't need abs. Another option for TSX axles could be to tack weld on a tone ring. I would have to see the axles first.

 

@Petah78

I have not done this yet as I haven't wanted to turn down the outer hubs to fit and then add an 80mm OD x 70mm ID tone ring.

The possible solution based on lengths are one RSX-S passenger side and one 06+ Civic Si driver side with the N1 hubs. Outers would need to be turned down to clear the spindles. That's why N1 supplies a spacer.

The OD of the stock MR2 spindles are smaller. I am currently running the insane axles. But, the price is not reasonable when you need replacements. We have proven out stock Honda axles over decades of endurance racing.

Best solution may be TeeMS's setup if you don't need abs. Another option for TSX axles could be to tack weld on a tone ring. I would have to see the axles first.

Thanks. I think i understand now. The OE Honda axles are too large and cannot fit into the stock MR2 spindle. To combat this, there are a couple of solution:

1. Use the N1 supplied spacers (sits around the red circle in pic below) which will push the largest part of the axle inwards of the car to prevent contact of the MR2 knuckle. If this is the case, why is the spacers such a bad solution? I guess ABS will also not be functional with this option since the tone ring is not aligned with the sensor?

2. Machine the axle (yellow circle) and to reduce size of the axle so they fit into the MR2 spindle and install a 80mm OD x 70mm ID tone ring for ABS function.

 

its anti-lock brakes not traction control. its a 3 channel system that actually causes more problems for the fast guys on track with the rear unloading and increasing stopping distances and/or sending people on an off track excursion, they call it "ice mode". Most people pull the fuse on track.

front and rear abs function will be based off the front sensors only, which should eliminate the "ice mode" condition.

besides that or pulling the fuse is to use a proper 4 channel abs system (expensive with minimal gains for 99.99% of people)

 

its anti-lock brakes not traction control. its a 3 channel system that actually causes more problems for the fast guys on track with the rear unloading and increasing stopping distances and/or sending people on an off track excursion, they call it "ice mode". Most people pull the fuse on track.

front and rear abs function will be based off the front sensors only, which should eliminate the "ice mode" condition.

besides that or pulling the fuse is to use a proper 4 channel abs system (expensive with minimal gains for 99.99% of people)

Thanks again. Can you please go into more details as in how you modified the TSX axels to make it work? I havn't been able to visualize what you mean by "swapped the inner join to a male for the driver side". Thanks.

 

acquire 3 axles total. 2 first gen tsx right side (usa passenger), 1 left side ( this can be from an 06-11 si, rsx, etc).

The 1 tsx axle and the left side axle must either both be aftermarket same brand or oem, the aftermarket have different size bearings than the oem's so you can't match aftermarket with oem, I say same brand because there could be minor differences in bearing size between manufacturers.

Remove the large boot clamp on the inner joints. Remove the female inner joint, install the male joint. Crimp a new boot clamp on.

I recommend fully disassembling each side axle you will be using and removing the grease that they come with and repack them with redline CV-2 grease.

You can buy CV clamps on amazon, get the crimp style with the crimping tool.

 

acquire 3 axles total. 2 first gen tsx right side (usa passenger), 1 left side ( this can be from an 06-11 si, rsx, etc).

The 1 tsx axle and the left side axle must either both be aftermarket same brand or oem, the aftermarket have different size bearings than the oem's so you can't match aftermarket with oem, I say same brand because there could be minor differences in bearing size between manufacturers.

Remove the large boot clamp on the inner joints. Remove the female inner joint, install the male joint. Crimp a new boot clamp on.

I recommend fully disassembling each side axle you will be using and removing the grease that they come with and repack them with redline CV-2 grease.

You can buy CV clamps on amazon, get the crimp style with the crimping tool.

Got it.

The right side/passenger side, you are installing a 04-08 TSX passenger side axle as is, no mods.

The left side/driver side axle, you are still using a passenger side TSX axle just with the (06-11si rsx) inner joint.

 

More questions, what are you guys using for:

1. Clutch lines
2. Fuel lines
3. Exhaust
4. Throttle cable

I understand MAP has solutions for all of these parts but are there any other/better options?

Thanks.

 

Petah - the diameter of the splined portion of the Honda axle is larger than Toyota and will not fit through the stock hub.

The OD of the outer where the tone ring resides is also much larger im diameter. The stock MRS axle uses a 79mm OD tone ring. The Honda tone ring is larger.

The TSX outer works without spacers because it doesn't have a tone ring. The TSX is one of the first cars that Honda switched to using a magnetic trigger inside the hub rather than using a tone ring on the axle.

TeeMS - Toyota uses a 4 channel abs system not 3. Moving the sensors to the front leaves the rear wheels unmonitored. It matters a lot, especially since most people here won't be using brake bias control. Your setup allows free lockup of the rears without intervention.

 

I could be wrong about the 3 channel, but I am almost certain that I am not. Each wheel has its own sensor but the abs pump controls both rear wheels at the same time.

My setup will be based on front wheel lockup. The rear will still pulse not lock up.

Edit: just went out and looked, it’s a 3 channel, 1 line that splits into 2

 

It is a 4 channel system. This is from the service manual:

BUT, the abs block changed from 00-02 (44510-17080) to 03-05 (44510-17090). While the sensors were always 4 channel, the abs block was originally 3 channel (which would suggest you have an 00-02). The later abs pump is a 4 channel.

Regardless, if you wired the rear sensors to the front, a front lockup with a 3 channel (00-02) abs block would cause three wheels to pulse while one front had full braking. At best the car would be really unstable and likely pull very hard to one side. That is the last thing you would want.

On 03-05, the wheels on one side of the car would pulse while rhe other side grabbed.and the car to pull sharply. I would really suggest that you undo it and run no abs. I would not suggest anybody do that mod.

 

It is a 4 channel system. This is from the service manual:

View attachment 83531

BUT, the abs block changed from 00-02 (44510-17080) to 03-05 (44510-17090). While the sensors were always 4 channel, the abs block was originally 3 channel (which would suggest you have an 00-02). The later abs pump is a 4 channel.

Regardless, if you wired the rear sensors to the front, a front lockup with a 3 channel (00-02) abs block would cause three wheels to pulse while one front had full braking. At best the car would be really unstable and likely pull very hard to one side. That is the last thing you would want.

On 03-05, the wheels on one side of the car would pulse while rhe other side grabbed.and the car to pull sharply. I would really suggest that you undo it and run no abs. I would not suggest anybody do that mod.

Yes, I have a 2001. No that is not how the system works. each rear input is reading a front sensor. being that it is a 3 channel system, when the front wheels detect lockup, all 4 will pulse. do you realize that the factory system is capable of doing the same exact scenario you are describing? But majority of the time both front wheels lock up at the same time.

I think someone is over thinking an easy solution that was over looked and debated for so long as to why not to go with N1 hubs. You haven't tried it, do not try to discredit it, your thought process of how the system works is wrong.

read some topics on this forum regarding "ice mode" in the factory system

 

Controlling the rear brakes from the front sensors would reduce the rear braking power somewhat when the ABS was active. I doubt that it would be dangerous. You would have no protection from rear brake lockup, but I believe that the brakes are balanced to make them safe against ABS failure.

 

That is true, not sure about the reduced power part. I think It would be almost impossible for my car to lock up the rear without locking the front. I run 205 front 245 rear Nankang Cr1's. I have only had it kick on since the swap in gravel and it feels the same is it did before. If I ever have any sort of dangerous encounter related to the abs function I will be the first to own it and inform the group.

 

That is true, not sure about the reduced power part....

Well, you would be interrupting the rear braking when the rear wheels are not the ones that are slipping. I would think that it would make more sense to just disable ABS action on the rear brakes if sensors were not available for them.

 

Welp everyone is entitled to an opinion. I’m keeping my functioning 4 wheel abs and going fast on track

 

Are people cutting the firewall for better access?

 

I did not. If nothing goes wrong, should be fine. I do worry about accessing the back side (front) of the engine if I ever need to though. If I cut the firewall, I'd be worrying about squeaks and rattles from the access port- so I guess you've got to pick your poison.

 

PLEASE help me sort out what coolant delete/reroute needs to be done on my K24a2 + stock intake manifold + Type S TB. What needs or should be deleted? Are there aftermarket options that simply these?
I understand that because I'm using the stock manifold, I don't need to worry about deleting coolant lines between head and manifold.
But what about the:

1. Upper coolant housing and hoses in pic below: do I replace this entire housing (no. 5 in pic)? Or do I keep it and, if so, do I need to delete any of the other lines (numbers 1-4 in pic)?
2. On this same housing, do I need numbers 6-7?
3. On the back of the engine, do I keep numbers 8-10? I'm using the stock K24a2 water pump and MAP swivel thermostat.

 

For mine, I blocked off #9 and routed #10 up to the water jacket adapter or port on the right side of the intake manifold.
I don’t even have #3 and #2
#4 goes to the big hose you cut a piece out of (see the kswap write up on Mitchs auto parts https://www.mitchsautoparts.com/pages/how-to-swap-a-k20a2-into-a-mr2-spyder-zzw30)

the port at #5 on mine is a plug.

all that being side I replaced all that with ktuned parts for cleaner install.

return from front goes into thermostat. Back of thermostat hose goes up to port on right of intake manifold. the rest of coolant goes left into the water pump jacket.
return from engine goes out top through #4 which you cut down in length
#1 goes to heater hose and t’s to overflow tank.

heater return is up front, which is why there’s only one heater line in the back.

after burping the system, no overheating issues.

 

It looks like you are using the KSwap stat housing which probably means you are using a single poppet thermostat instead of dual poppet. This is a significant mistake because the engine is designed to utilize a dual poppet and dual poppet has numerous advantages. One poppet controls the flow to the radiator and the other to the bypass circuit. You want the bypass shut down when you are hot and at full load.

 

Thanks for the reply! I'm using MAPs thermostat housing here. What alternative part would you suggest?

 

you cant use a dual poppet stat in the cheap aftermarket housings. I'm using the stock tsx housing, which is the best option for k24. all of the cheap aluminum housings leak, including ktuned(trash) and a lot of people have issues not getting up to operating temperature.

 

Well I'm not sure what real alternatives there are, then! Or is there a non-cheap aluminum housing you recommend? So you're saying this K-Tuned one is bad? Not sure what more expensive options even exist!

 

I'm saying there is nothing better than oem. If you use one of those housings you have to take the issues that come with them. Tractuff makes a quality piece, but it does not swivel.

 

I appreciate your response. I have a few items from Traftuff and really like their products. What about their new redesigned housing? It looks like you can select a 90 degree option. Do you know if one of these will work for the MRS?

 

If anyone is interested in a well-refined calibration for Hondata, I have one that I would be happy to share. This is for the following specs engine: K20 stock everything (from a 2004 RSX-S),simple 3" CAI with a 120 degree bend, stock PRB manifold and throttle body, K-tuned 4-2-1 Swap header adapted to custom 2.5" exhaust with Vibrant GESI metal-core catalyst and Magnaflow 14210 muffler. One of the nice things about this calibration is that the transition to high-lift cam is ultra smooth and occurs at 4700 rpm. I based this on a lot of calibrations from similar state of tune K20's and spent a lot of time with avoiding sharp discontinuities in ignition and cam timing curves. I also avoid having to move the cam phasers right at high-lift switchover so the oil flow demand from the VTEC doesn't coincide with demand to the phasers. I spent a bit of trial and error time with determining the full-throttle cam timing points, and the result is a very strong and smooth torque curve with an awesome 5500-8000 swell of power. A lot of the calibrations I looked at had huge inconsistencies in transitions in the cam tables (manifold pressure and speed axes) which require a lot of interpolations and really tax the ability of the cam phaser feedback control system. The tables in this calibration are smoother. If you want to give this a try PM me.

Dave

 

If anyone is interested in a well-refined calibration for Hondata, I have one that I would be happy to share. This is for the following specs engine: K20 stock everything (from a 2004 RSX-S),simple 3" CAI with a 120 degree bend, stock PRB manifold and throttle body, K-tuned 4-2-1 Swap header adapted to custom 2.5" exhaust with Vibrant GESI metal-core catalyst and Magnaflow 14210 muffler. One of the nice things about this calibration is that the transition to high-lift cam is ultra smooth and occurs at 4700 rpm. I based this on a lot of calibrations from similar state of tune K20's and spent a lot of time with avoiding sharp discontinuities in ignition and cam timing curves. I also avoid having to move the cam phasers right at high-lift switchover so the oil flow demand from the VTEC doesn't coincide with demand to the phasers. I spent a bit of trial and error time with determining the full-throttle cam timing points, and the result is a very strong and smooth torque curve with an awesome 5500-8000 swell of power. A lot of the calibrations I looked at had huge inconsistencies in transitions in the cam tables (manifold pressure and speed axes) which require a lot of interpolations and really tax the ability of the cam phaser feedback control system. The tables in this calibration are smoother. If you want to give this a try PM me.

Dave

you should probably upload the calibration somewhere with a warning for people to use at their own risk... in my experience putting your self out there like that leads to people wanting you to tweak the map to their specific setup...for free... a pal or a person here or there no problem but when you get 10+ people wanting basically free tunes and trouble shooting ehhhhhhhh

 

A couple silly questions.

I have a k20a2 with ep3 gearbox installed using the MAP kit.
I spent all of Sunday trying everything to get it to shift how I want.

I've gotten to the point where reverse is good, 5th and 6th is move right until you feel the "wall" then up and down which is feeling good.
The problem is 1st and 2nd. I would expect to move left until the "wall" and then up and down, however the up and down is somewhere between centered and the wall which makes finding 1st and 2nd unpleasant which in turn makes me question when shifting from 2nd whether its going into 3rd or back to 1st.

At first I thought maybe it was the short shifter lever I had previously installed, so I removed that. Still the same issue.

A thing to bare in mind is that the car is still on 4 jack stands. I see on MAP's install guide they say don't adjust the gears until last when the car is done and on the ground.

So my questions are:

1. Does being on the ground make that much difference setting up the shift?

2. The adjustable arm on the shift mechanism, there is no fixed pivot point on the arm so all you are adjusting is overall length of the arm. Adjusting each side individually has no affect other than increasing the overall length of the arm? ( I know this sounds silly, it just seems weird that I can get the up and down throws so perfect but the left to right is so whack, it feels as though I am missing how to adjust the left to right throw.)

3. With regards to the cooling hose from the firewall to the thermostat. I used the stock hose and stock thermostat. It fits, but there is quite a kink. Will this be an issue or will the pressure just kind of make it do what it needs to do?

Thanks

 

A couple silly questions.

I have a k20a2 with ep3 gearbox installed using the MAP kit.
I spent all of Sunday trying everything to get it to shift how I want.

I've gotten to the point where reverse is good, 5th and 6th is move right until you feel the "wall" then up and down which is feeling good.
The problem is 1st and 2nd. I would expect to move left until the "wall" and then up and down, however the up and down is somewhere between centered and the wall which makes finding 1st and 2nd unpleasant which in turn makes me question when shifting from 2nd whether its going into 3rd or back to 1st.

At first I thought maybe it was the short shifter lever I had previously installed, so I removed that. Still the same issue.

A thing to bare in mind is that the car is still on 4 jack stands. I see on MAP's install guide they say don't adjust the gears until last when the car is done and on the ground.

So my questions are:

1. Does being on the ground make that much difference setting up the shift?

2. The adjustable arm on the shift mechanism, there is no fixed pivot point on the arm so all you are adjusting is overall length of the arm. Adjusting each side individually has no affect other than increasing the overall length of the arm? ( I know this sounds silly, it just seems weird that I can get the up and down throws so perfect but the left to right is so whack, it feels as though I am missing how to adjust the left to right throw.)

3. With regards to the cooling hose from the firewall to the thermostat. I used the stock hose and stock thermostat. It fits, but there is quite a kink. Will this be an issue or will the pressure just kind of make it do what it needs to do?

Thanks

You do not want a kink in that hose. It is the suction side of the system (pump inlet) and will tend to lead to pump cavitation. I made an S shaped connection with 2 45 degree hoses and a connector.


Dave

 

those shifter adapters are junk and those "walls" you speak of will never go away with any adjustment. the cable bracket bends, the bell crank bends, too many moving parts. your either going to have to shift slow if you want to use that. or use RSX shifter cables and shifter, oem or aftermarket, the car will shift 1000x better, like an RSX

 

Damn. Thanks, not what I wanted to hear

 

no one likes spending money twice to solve a problem.. I went down the route, bought the adapter, spent some time get the adjustment right (gate spacing is odd) then go for a drive and miss 2nd and 5th gear 50% of the time.. I had a bud row through the gears while I watched the adapter mechanism for binding and noticed how bad the cable bracket and bell crank move

I then added a few triangular braces to the brackets, eliminated that movement but still didn't feel right, noticed the heim joint adjuster was making contact with the shifter mechanism, it needed further adjustment to fully engage the gears which caused interference on the shifter mech.. then I ground down the clearance I needed for the adjustment, again slightly better, but still sucked, still missed gears.

friend gave me a billet rsx shifter, ordered up some rsx cables and rwd cable bracket, got it in with the cables ran factory routing and now no more missed gears and normal gate spacing, and the many benefits the shifter provides