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K Series Engine Swap Research

5M views 2K replies 152 participants last post by  atlex 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Last Update: 3/12/2014

"Getting closer and closer, Thanks to all who are helping make this a more manageable task for others"
Mounts: Solved
Shifting Mechanism: Solved
Axles: Solved, Updated 3/12/2014
Wiring: Researching, Updated 3/12/2014
Radiator Hoses: Solved
Heater Hoses: Solved
A/C: Pending Updated 3/12/2014
Throttle Cable: Pending Updated 3/12/2014
Fuel System: Solved
Exhaust System: Solved, Updated 3/12/2014
Anti-Lock Brakes: Solved
Power Steering: Solved


General Info: Always Read First...!
Well, I have been gone for a long time and will try to keep this updated. Sorry about the delay as I am in a transition period and can't work on the swap.
Also some really big information the innovative mounts put the engine so far forward that only the PRB intake manifold off of an RSX type S will fit.

BottledFedMR2 has confirmed this and it's been verified. So anything else will require the firewall to be cut or the manifold to be shortened. This sucks but at the same time it's nice to have the engine weight as far forward as possible as it puts it more centered.

I will have CONFIRMED next to everything I know for 100% is correct information.

Mounts: CONFIRMED
Recommends 75 was told by innovative that it's the same as a 65a poly used by
other companies. Theirs is pure poly so 65a could sag over time.
http://www.innovativemounts.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=90551

Shifting Mechanism: CONFIRMED
Use the Factory MR2 cables and this bracket will make them interface with no other mods.
http://www.innovativemounts.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=50507
**Note: 2006+ Civic SI transmission will require the shift "Arms" off of an RSX type S transmission. You will then be able to
hook up the innovative shift Mechanism as it would be on a normal RSX-type s Transmission.


Axles: CONFIRMED
Axles can be ordered through Drive Shaft Shop they now have part numbers on file though they are not on their website.
Part Number: RA9040x2 and RA9041X2

Wiring:
There is much debate about the wiring so far it's every man for himself. I haven't actually started the physical wiring so I can't confirm anything or have a proven design. There are a few that have completed their swaps and have them running and driving but they all sort of do wiring differently. Monkeywrench racing is working on a full swap kit and will be selling the parts all separately. I talked to them and they will be offering a wiring solution. Right now this is known for a fact!

If you want the car to fully function like a stock spyder you will need to shotgun the ECUs (Factory Toyota ECU and Honda ECU) if you don't care and want to replace your cluster then you can run a straight Honda ECU but don't expect it to be very easy and you will need to know wiring to do it. You will also find it a lot harder to get the A/C running correctly without redesigning the whole A/C wiring system.

Now if you just run the Honda ECU by itself and keep your factory cluster you will lose your TEMP gauge and a few other idiot lights.


Old Info 3/12/2014

ABS:

I have found in theory that the ABS is almost completely independent of the engine control unit there is one wire going to the ECU and from talks with people its a input to tell ecu that ABS is active.

P/S:
The P/S system isn't too much of an issue in my eyes as it will keep running if you don't give it any signal from ECU. So at the basic level, you have P/S no matter what. Now if you want to operate factory style then you need to configure Kpro to see the signal from the pump to IDLE UP on the current draw which is PIN E3-25.

There is also a pin on the ECU for turning the pump on and off while the engine is running/off. This pin is E3-19 on the ECU. From what I understand if the Power Steering ECU doesn't see any input on this pin it will just stay on all the time with the car in ACC/ON position. As for any speed variance to Pump pressure adjustments, this is all done between the P/S ECU and the ABS ECU (as the ABS ECU supplies the speed signal).

A/C:
I am working with innovative and when I start my swap will be using a prototype A/C adapter plate. You will want to keep your 1zz compressor as it will be the easiest by far to adapt to work. The K-series compressors are bigger and right now the 1zz one will barely fit.

I will be running wiring straight to the HVAC controls so that I can bypass the Toyota multiplex system and in essence just hard wiring the functions like Honda has in its cars all the way up to 2002. I will be recreating the same system they used in the earlier model civics that did not require any type of digital electronics.

At the back of the Toyota Hvac controls the A/C switch comes out as an analog +12 or Grounded signal that goes to the combo meter where it is processed and sent to the ECU on a multiplex. I will just be wiring straight to this output on the HVAC control and cutting the meter and associated multiplex functions out of the circuit. I will then create a patch harness for the A/C compressor that contains the High/Low switch relays to cut the clutch and also figure out a way to wire a freeze-out switch into this same harness.


Unless I am missing something and by all means correct me. I see that if you completely remove the factory Toyota ECU the only things that will not work are the A/C, Temp gauge, and Some idiot lights and that is it. Everything else can be wired/jumped to function like normal.

The Temp gauge is on multiplex along with some of the idiot lights and A/C. You could make these work using the factory ECU as a multiplex conversion box and feed it the K-swaps sensor signals and hope they are in the same range as factory Toyota's or hook up factory Toyota sensors in addition to the Honda ones on the engine. IE: two oil pressure switches, two temp sensors ETC...

My goal is to make it as streamlined and simple as possible (Wiring/Electronics). That is why I want the Toyota ECU to be completely gone and all functions controlled by the Honda ECU.

Overall I am getting more and more done day by day and hope to start buying parts soon. I wanted to figure out most of the wiring before I even took the first bolt off the car. I'm hoping to have some of the conversion harness already made before I even start working on the car. "


Throttle Cable:
Was informed that if you buy a Cruise Control delete it will allow the factory cable to bolt in no major mods are needed. Getting verification but should be for a 00-04 RSX.

Radiator Hoses: CONFIRMED
He also said that the K-series and the 2zz are very similar in where all the hoses route. Since this is true He has confirmed the fact that in the swap in the lotus all the hoses fit up 99% perfectly.

He said cutting one hose 2 inches is all that is required on the lotus. Since the engine is what determines the placement of hoses then the spyder should be no different than what's required for a 2zz swap.

Heater Hoses: CONFIRMED
Read Radiator Hoses Same applies.

A/C System:
Again BottledFedMR2 is the guy to see, he is working on bringing an A/C bracket to production. He is close to having it ready and I myself will be buying one.
It will use the 1zz compressor, he says it will be a little lower than he would like but it doesn't seem to be a big issue.

Tim said they are in the works to make a bracket for the Lotus with Kswap. So He says he doesn't see why the spyder wouldn't be able to use it. Again like the throttle cable he would need someone to test fit it and confirm or send it back to have it modified till they get it right. But it is doable and not a big issue.

The Lotus has issues with A/C line clearance and he said that is one of the problems they are working on. When I asked him if the Lotus and spyder have very similar bay layouts I didn't know for sure but he said the way the firewalls are the spyder might actually have more room for the lines. Like everything though he can't say for sure.

Exhaust System: CONFIRMED
PPE makes a Header now for MR-2 Spyder with Kswap and is also available through MWR.
The collector size is 2.5" and the overall header is longer than the stock one so will stick out further than the factory.
Still waiting to get info on if you can use a downpipe to make it line up with the rest of the factory system.

Fuel System: CONFIRMED
You will need to run a return of some sort. You will need to also get a fuel regulator. I am still a little iffy on this from a basic swap standpoint because Honda uses a returnless system factory so you might not need to do this if you're just going to OEM performance.

Extra Notes:
I will update this a little more in a few days. I wanted to get something new on here as I have been away from the forums for a while and people might like to see a summary of the events going on with the Kswap. The main thing that is missing is the wiring. Once there is an agreed-upon design that everyone thinks works and is simple as it can be will the swap gets easy enough for everyone.
 
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#2 · (Edited)
This is what I have.



from rywire (asking about swap harness)

"Hi, I would need a mr2 engine harness sent in to complete the job."
"About 400 should cover it. The ecu will still have obd2 functionality. I do not know about the dash, as long as its not can it should work. Worst case a resistor will need to be added for tach signal."

from ppeengineering (asking about header)

"Hi Vasilis,
We have been talking with Brandon at Mitch’s auto parts about doing one, but we haven’t gotten the car yet so I can’t tell you when they will be available or pricing."

from hybrid-racing (asking about mounts, swap harness, shift linkage, axles)

"We offer the conversion engine mounts and the universal K series conversion wiring harness.
I can also get axles as well, but I will need dimensions from you once the engine is mounted into the car."
"The mounts are $499, the conversion harness is $349.
The prices do not include shipping. Please give me your shipping address and I can give you a total."

Innovative never answered my email and hasport said they are not making any swap items. I heard rcrew is making a shifter linkage but haven't found how to contact them.
 
#29 ·
RYwire is one of the places I was going to call tomorrow. I'm trying to find someone that can give me some answers.
I'm really wanting to find someone that will be willing to help us out. I think once this part is solved the Kswap will be more popular.
 
#3 ·
Innovative has mounts out now. Im trying to find out about the shfiter cables and axels.

Wiring seems to be hit and miss. Rywire told me 1000 plus.. I know for sure the spyder isnt can bus and im trying to talk to people who have done the swap to figure out how they did their wireing. It seems to me we need to keep our factoru ecu and also use the honda ecu.
 
#5 ·
Aside from the mounts the only "hard" part is see is the shift linkage. If they have a linkage kit out or plans for that the rest is just simple out sourcing. Coolant system can be easily made up, axles easily ordered, header is already made, as well as a "custom" intake. Anyone have any info about the trans mods needed.
 
#6 ·
Shifter linkage is pretty easy to fabricate but innovative have one under testing, i have some pics of it that they send me some time ago,

Other than the linkage there in no other mods needed to the transmisson.
 
#12 ·
newTE=Drew1;881925]Talked to innovative yesterday, they have linkage done. Monday my car goes back to Sportcar motion and the transplant will start.[/QUOTE]

Oh this is what your doing this season. I'm envious. Please document the swap, i will most likely do the swap too. K24 are stupid cheap!

Btw when you guys mention shift linkage, you mean new shift cables?
 
#14 ·
newTE=Drew1;881925]Talked to innovative yesterday, they have linkage done. Monday my car goes back to Sportcar motion and the transplant will start.
Oh this is what your doing this season. I'm envious. Please document the swap, i will most likely do the swap too. K24 are stupid cheap!

Btw when you guys mention shift linkage, you mean new shift cables?[/QUOTE]

by shiftelinkage we men a reverse shifter mecanism on the transmisson side so you dont have the to custom order longer cables and loop them around the transmisson.
 
#15 ·
The k24 block is cheap but to make it a true performance engine with power it still needs the expensive k20 head. The TSX or type S trans are also more expensive if you want the LSD etc.

All I really know is innovative has the linkage made now, like Ikrana said the linkage comes from the other side so needs to be flipped and reversed.
 
#21 ·
Yah the K24 makes power but its head is pretty docile compared to the k20a head. A stock k24 block with 11:1 (OEM) pistons and a k20a head will make great power NA. I'm looking to get upwards of 250 with mine NA....but mine is far from stock at this point.

As far as it being a cheaper swap than a 2ZZ? haha I doubt it. You need the motor, trans, axles with honda inside splines and toyota outside splines, not to mention an intermediate shaft. Custom motor mounts, shifter cables and/or linkage, OEM honda PCM, wiring harness splicing, hondata, kpro. And dont forget the simple stiff like alternator, belt tensioner that fits, and if you want AC theres different ways of getting it done but I'm just leaving it out for now to save money. I'm just rambling at this point but there are more things that need to be adressed like intake and exhaust routing, sensors.

My point is it isn't a cheap swap to do compared to a 2ZZ where many of the 1ZZ parts (mainly the trans and axles) are interchangeable but it should be well worth it.
 
#22 ·
Yup, I've been looking at doing a K swap once I'm done with my SW20. No point in doing a head swap on the K24A2 motors, just build it up the way you want it. They will flow way more power than what most people are looking for with the ZZW chasis. You'll end up saving quite a bit of money that way, so you can spend it on important things like cams, and Kpro. :)
 
#23 ·
It definitely won't be cheaper, but it will make a crap ton more power and torque than a 2zz NA.
 
#26 ·
Gotta like that! I wish a K series would fall into my hands, all I get are crappy Toyota motors. :D
 
#27 ·
There are two very common misconceptions about k.
1) k20 head is always better than a k24 head. Wrong. K20a head is the best because of the oem hand port on them. K24a2 head, k20a2 head are nearly identical. Port these 3 and they are almost identical. K20a3 head isnt as good because it doesnt have VVL on both cams.

2) k24a2 > frankenstein. Usually a frank is a 9.7:1 shortblock and with the k20a2 head it is 10:1. K24a2 comes with stronger rods, better pistons 10.5:1, and piston oil squirters. And if you get an 06+ k24a2 you get high lift cams and oversized intake valves.
 
#28 ·
from what i hear the k24a2 head has more material to work with so you can port bigger and thus flow better. I've also heard that the angle of entry on the head differs from that of the k20a, for better or for worse. I believe in its stock form the k20a head will flow slightly better than a k24a2 head but once you port it the point is moot. Also the k24a2's VTC only has 25 degrees of rotation whereas the k20a has 50. There are many other variables you can nitpick at but they are both great heads, if you can get an 06+ TSX motor complete just run it as is, no need to swap heads IMO
 
#34 ·
K Swap Guide?

Just throwing this out there. I'm not a Honda know it all but, I have learned a thing or two while doing another swap.

I am not s Spyder know it all either but, the Spyder does not have "CAN" or its not labeled "CANH & CANL" but this car does have it or seething close to it called multiplex.

Ill get out of this sandbox and go back to play in my own now.
 
#35 ·
Just throwing this out there. I'm not a Honda know it all but, I have learned a thing or two while doing another swap.

I am not s Spyder know it all either but, the Spyder does not have "CAN" or its not labeled "CANH & CANL" but this car does have it or seething close to it called multiplex.

Ill get out of this sandbox and go back to play in my own now.
I almost wish it just had can. There is many solutions for honda kseries to can bus adapters because of the lotus guys. Im going to try and get more info from rywire and also I was told that there are more kswaps going on over seas than here so im trying get ahold of them through varius fourms.
 
#37 ·
K Swap Guide?



They share very little the lotus T4 ecu has been hacked from what I found.

Not try to be a nay sayer and don't want to play in someone else sandbox. I will pass on information promised in a pm though. :)
 
#39 ·
You doing great work man, keep it up. Seems like its almost there!! Also thanks for putting the info on here.

I'm assuming axles will cost comparable to the lotus axles on Innovative's site ($799)?

Hopefully wiring wont be too bad/cost much.
 
#40 ·
As of right now there is no price but talking to Tim at Innovative he says they are sure they will be at or lower than the lotus axels.

They are still working on them but since the toyota parts are considerably cheaper to obtain he thinks the axels can't be more than 799$. The main cost for the lotus axels was they couldn't by CV joints they have to make their own.

I also had a hour talk with David at hybridracing and he was receptive of the idea of doing the swap and offered his help. He said they actually was wanting to do it before but due to lack of interest by customers they gave up on it.

They are also not to far from me so If I can pull off getting the thing running I could ship it down for him to look at bridging the cabin and engine harnesses.
 
#46 ·
Iam using custom drivshaft shop axels for my swap, rated to about 600whp, but it was little bit more pricey, 999usd for them.
 
#53 ·
I was also really contemplating Bottlefed's swap sale. It does seem like a great price but there were a few things that stuck out.

Shipping your car to him and back (or drive there/fly there drive back) makes the price only ok.

One main concern is maintenance of the swapped car. Whatever he does to swap, you have no real idea what is what because you weren't there. Its the same with installing your own turbo kit or anything complex. And I highly doubt he'll give you a detailed list. So when something breaks or an electronic feature stops working your sol on diagnosing ESPECIALLY if your not mechanically inclined.

I'm not sure if he mentioned but what happens to your motor that was swapped out? Does he buy it or what? I guess you can have him put it on a pallet and ship it back to you but then that makes the price worst again.

Lastly if any of the swap parts that he himself got made, are there spares for you in the future?

Just my .02
 
#55 ·
Life has been a bit crazy. I talked to UVA the other day. To supply him with my .02 worth of thoughts and pass on any info that could help.

Keep in mind I am not an expert just want to see people have fun. Like I keep saying ill try to play in my own sand box.
 
#56 ·
Should just post whatever concerns you have, no nay saying, just a legit issue that might come up.

I mean the swap has been done probably a dozen or so times already so there is a way that you can definitely get the swap done. Not sure how ikrana did it but there is a shop that will be doing my swap so ill see what they end up doing exactly. The shop also put a K in a lotus a few months ago, did a k crz swap, k eg, k EK, k db8, etc the list goes on and on.
 
#60 ·
Uva... This may be helpful to find alot of the answers you are looking for. As a matter of fact, they may all be hidden in this manual.

http://www.mr2.com/forums/mk-3-mr2-spyder/Toyota-MR2-61651-mk3-full-toyota-maintenance-manual.html

The speed sensor for ABS detects the wheel speed and sends the appropriate signals to the ABS ECU.
The ABS ECU converts these signals into a 4–pulse signal and outputs it to the combination meter.
After this signal is converted into a more precise rectangular waveform by the waveform shaping circuit inside
the combination meter, it is then transmitted to the vane pump assembly with motor. The vane pump
assembly with motor determines the vehicle speed based on the frequency of these pulse signals.
 
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