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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I would have posted this on our continuing discussions regarding Lithium ion batteries but I think this deserves a thread of it's own.
I remember long ago when I was one of the first here to test the Deka lightweight AGM batteries with great success.

LiFePO4 battery technology is still in it's infancy and there are many that have had mixed results. Before I begin a special thanks to serialk11r and sldnrck for their knowledge and experience in pointing me in the right direction.


There are many LiFePO4 batteries on the market at different price points. The problem with Lithium batteries is the potential for damage to the cells overtime by having one or more cells out of balance.
Most people have found that these batteries gets damaged when they are undercharged and then quickly charged by the alternator with more amps than the battery is rated for.
There is also a question of the quality of the cells used.

You basically have two options.

1. The cheaper options like the Shori, Battery Tender and others that does not have an in built balanced circuit but it seems to work for some whereas others go through them as they die out prematurely. The cost over the more expensive options like the EarthX makes it a lot more viable as you can buy four Shori batteries over the right EarthX battery to get by but you will have to deal with knowing that there is a higher potential of damaging the battery if it gets discharged. You may also want to buy a charger that can balance the cells from time to time to maintain the life of the battery which only adds to the cost.

2. The more expensive options like the EarthX batteries uses an internal balancing circuit to address some of these issues so the battery lasts a long time and is resilient to premature death seen with the cheaper stuff.

Ideally the EarthX seems like the way to go because of it's features of over/ under protection and a balancing circuit but they are costly if you want to do it right and it can still go bad unless you have the right one that is rated for our alternator. Too expensive and not worth it over the cheaper reliable AGM batteries even if you are trying to save the maximum amount of weight.



I was stuck at this point and decided to wait until a better option opened up at the right price point and now that's a reality.

The Scorpion Stinger battery is that option. It's a battery that has a built in balancing circuit and claimed to have quality cells that outperform the competition.
You don't need a fancy charger and you know the health of the battery anytime by pressing a button on the battery. This is great because you are fully aware of your batteries condition and know when to pull of the charger.
It comes with a 2 year replacement guarantee and an additional 1 year prorated after that so 3 years of coverage.

The Battery I was looking at was originally this one with the price tag of $227 but I was still on the fence because it was still too expensive.
https://www.batterystuff.com/batteries/lithium-iron-batteries/sstx20hq-fp.html

But then I found this little gem for $149.

https://www.batterystuff.com/batteries/ss51913.html

The second link has more CCA and is cheaper probably because it's the most common battery size on the market for small aftermarket batteries and applications for which is the odyssey 680 is popular. It weights about a half pound more and a little bigger dimensionally which doesn't matter for us because these batteries are small enough for our application and being 3.6lbs is still great for the money for it's specs. Having a little more room in the battery for the cells can only be a plus for cooling.

Because the Odyssey 680 is a popular battery size it opens up a lot of options for battery mounts.

You can use your original battery mount and screw in a mount like this one. It may need some shims but overall I believe it should work. Having the battery near the stock battery location is essential to keep it cool.

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Micro-Mini-600-Sprint-Racing-Battery-Box-for-Odyssey-PC680-Battery,83562.html?sku=96012680&utm_medium=CSEGoogle&utm_source=CSE&utm_campaign=CSEGOOGLE&catargetid=530009170000094370&cadevice=c&gclid=CjwKEAjwy6O7BRDzm-Tdub6ZiSASJADPNzYr3BEvntT0F4ntkEhKb4uXZihfXtdl_q84TFICBbKfthoC55Tw_wcB

Here is a link for the posts that Madmaxbiaggi contributed.
https://www.batterystuff.com/battery-products/miscellaneous-accessories/BPAdaptor.html

Edit 7/18/2017
I would skip on terminal adaptors. The grounding wire spade can be unbolted from the clamp.
You can then run to the hardware store and find the right size bolt, nut and washer to bolt it to the battery terminals.

For the positive side, you can cut the wire and crimp in a new ring terminal.

https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/dorman-conduct-tite-2-0-gauge-3-8-in.-copper-ring-lugs-86190/22143330-p?c3ch=PLA&c3nid=22143330-P&c3apidt=22084222930&gclid=Cj0KEQjw-qbLBRD79JWsjuXI784BEiQAftBCI6xvJYCcX1UMi3Rsu7QooNyOanyBXUevFfFdb5edppQaAsl-8P8HAQ&gclsrc=aw.ds

These ring terminals are nice because they have a pocket at the end where the wire goes and when it gets crushed it makes a great connection.
I have another 2 gauge ring terminal which I stacked on top of it for my amp that runs to the frunk.

Everything is bolted up nicely and neatly.
So in conclusion, none of these batteries are perfect and you could possibly damage the stinger but with it's warranty, battery management system and battery indicator it should be the safest bet and a viable option at it's price point.

I'm a little sceptical on the CCA claims as 552 is a lot more then even EarthX but if true this option can't be beat. I did a little digging around and there was one person on a Lotus Elise forum using the more expensive version of this battery in the first link with success and someone on a S2K forum using the battery I'm recommending with the same success with about a year of use.

I will detail my experience once the battery arrives and I hope this information helps someone looking for what could be a good inexpensive option with the right features.
 

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I have maybe three years daily driving with the same LifeP04. Never balanced and still working fine. LifeP04 don't tolerate being discharged past a point so if you use one use it often. They need some help on very cold days also, I run two in the winter.
 

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Jesus Christ that is cheap. I thought 200 was not bad for the first one, but the second one appears to be the same size but much less money somehow.

My only concern is that they are not advertising the Ah rating, but based on the charging current on the sticker in the picture and the weight, I would guess 8-10Ah which is plenty. On a bigger car I'd probably grab a bigger EarthX or put two of these in parallel for peace of mind.

Thinking about it, it's about time that something came along at this price. The LiFePO4 cells themselves should only run maybe 90 dollars, and a BMS is super cheap.
 

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nice option. How do these hold up when connected to a battery tender, I wonder. I ask because that's how my car sits in the garage for most of the time. Also, where is that odessy battery mount attached?
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
I thought I would address some of the thoughts and questions on this post.

I included the link for battery posts on my original post. I will do a short and long term review. I remember the old Deka thread that went on forever where I updated my experience and we shall do the same here and hopefully post better batteries as they become available. I have a feeling all of the cheaper options will start showing up with management systems that could also limit the charging amps so they run independent of alternator output. In my research I found a company that makes lithium car batteries with the management but they are heavier and way too expensive for us hobbyist but the future is bright. Maybe they will have deep cycle technology which will eliminate lead acid batteries for good.

In regard to the Deka I have killed one just about every year because even those weaken if I let the car dip below a certain voltage and AGM batteries should not be used without the right charging profile. Some of the newer cars that have an option for both use an IBS sensor at the battery and has the ECU that sets up the right profile that address AGM battery charging requirements. If AGM batteries are charged right they can last longer than lead acid but sadly they are not suited for our application and we kill them overtime by using them. They were viable because of the price point but I have noticed over the years they are steadily going up in price. I have also noticed as they become progressively worse so much so that the car also loses a little bit of power because the car depends on the battery to stiffen the voltage when the alternator demands are not instantly met. The lithium batteries on the other hand have a higher voltage profile which should be able to keep the car stiffer than even a bigger lead acid battery so that might be a plus.

Yes this battery is cheap and it makes sense because it's bigger and the most common battery size in the lithium motorcycle series. This size of battery is used on some of the bigger motorcycles above 1000cc and up to 1600cc. The demands of some of these motorcycles to turn over is great because of the high compression so for our cars it should work more than adequately. The only drawback is that our alternator may put out more current that might damage the battery if the car is started in a near discharged state. Fortunately having a management system will give us a bit of insurance.

In regard to LTs question, you should be able to use the mount I linked. My plan is to remove stock battery mount and drill four holes in it and pass bolts and lock nuts to secure it. I will post some pictures of my work, it should be relatively easy.

Although you can use any battery charger to charge this battery I decided to invest in a Battery Tender lithium JR . This charger is relatively cheap at $29 shipped. This charger will have a more optimised charging profile so I can be assured that I will not damage the battery if for some reason I get lazy and let parasitic draw deplete the battery. I can simply press the battery indicator on the battery and charge accordingly or I can leave it charging as it has a float mode specific for the needs for lithium iron so it won't damage it.
My cordless weed wacker uses a lithium battery and the feature I like about it is the battery charge indicator button on the battery. This is why I think this battery will be a hit because you will always know instantly the condition of the charge so you don't take a risk of damaging it. It makes owning a battery of this type a lot more convenient.
 

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nice option. How do these hold up when connected to a battery tender, I wonder. I ask because that's how my car sits in the garage for most of the time. Also, where is that odessy battery mount attached?
I've been pleased with the performance of the Ballistic Battery I added to my car several months ago. However, this new option is a clear winner on price and convenience (due to built in balancing circuit). Good researching there, Dev.

Ray
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I've been pleased with the performance of the Ballistic Battery I added to my car several months ago. However, this new option is a clear winner on price and convenience (due to built in balancing circuit). Good researching there, Dev.

Ray
I think the ballistic battery should give you good performance as long as you routinely balance it using your charger.
It seems like to me to own any of these batteries you have to be mindful and more features, better the outcome.
I don't think any of these batteries are ready for primetime but for the hobbyist I think if you know what you are doing these batteries theoretically can last longer than lead acid and should not suffer the consequences long term issues with AGM battery overcharging.

Anyway the battery and mount is in rout and I should have it Thursday to evaluate the fit. If it's a little loose I think a shim is all that will be needed to lock it in tight.
Then I have to evaluate the best orientation for mounting.
 

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nice option. How do these hold up when connected to a battery tender, I wonder. I ask because that's how my car sits in the garage for most of the time. Also, where is that odessy battery mount attached?
I am pretty much in the same situation. If the car is even together, it is usually only driven on some weekends. When my turbo setup goes on soon I have a Corkys battery tray that I will be mounting to the rear cross member. Dev mentioned keeping this new battery in the factory location for cooling, so I am wondering if it would not be an ideal battery in my situation?


Since I know NOTHING about batteries, what battery would be recommended?

As far as my power requirements, I eventually plan to convert most of my exterior lighting over to LED per Halo's thread(Not Highs/lows). I have a 2000 with 03 head and tail lights, DDM HID's in low beam, Sylverstars in High beam IIRC. Also have a JL 8" sub under the dash and a 250w amp. Other things I will be installing is a pump for A2W setup, Pump for Meth Injection, and a Defi Gauge system.
 

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I am pretty much in the same situation. If the car is even together, it is usually only driven on some weekends. When my turbo setup goes on soon I have a Corkys battery tray that I will be mounting to the rear cross member. Dev mentioned keeping this new battery in the factory location for cooling, so I am wondering if it would not be an ideal battery in my situation?


Since I know NOTHING about batteries, what battery would be recommended?

As far as my power requirements, I eventually plan to convert most of my exterior lighting over to LED per Halo's thread(Not Highs/lows). I have a 2000 with 03 head and tail lights, DDM HID's in low beam, Sylverstars in High beam IIRC. Also have a JL 8" sub under the dash and a 250w amp. Other things I will be installing is a pump for A2W setup, Pump for Meth Injection, and a Defi Gauge system.
I can't speak for the batteries that Dev has listed, but what I do for a living revolves around lithium batteries (Lithium Ion and LiPO) so I can give you some general pros/cons.

1. They have more energy density than lead-acid. You can have a smaller size pack with more mAH (general cycle lifetime) and a greater "C" rating (discharge rate). Discharge rate can be though of as the maximum current impulse drawn from it. In your case, turning HID's on or playing a song that has a lot of bass hits will draw more peak current, and lithium does a better job at it.

2. They have less internal resistance which allows for such a high discharge rate, and also a high charge rate. This doesn't mean you should always charge them at the highest rate possible.

3. They generate a lot of heat and can physically expand (ask your drone buddies about this one).

4. Lithium (all types) does not need to be fully discharged before charging (like older NiCD or NiMH batteries) - but they also do not like to stored at full charge for long periods of time either.

5. Series batteries (let's say three 3.7v batteries in a series configuration ie. 12v) have to be balanced charged and can be a nightmare if just 1 cell is out of balance between the other two. This is like taking the slowest runner out of a three man group and putting him behind the other two instead of up front to set the pace. They are very hard to bring back from the dead.

6. In general a series battery will tend towards going out of balance if used at their limits.
 

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Maybe they will have deep cycle technology which will eliminate lead acid batteries for good.
So most lithium chemistries handle "deep cycling" far better than lead acid does, IIRC. The stock battery in the Spyder was rated what, 28Ah? You can't actually use anywhere near that much charge without shortening the lifespan of the battery by a lot, maybe half at most. LiFePO4 can do 1000 90% discharge cycles and still retain 70% capacity. Good luck getting that out of a deep cycle lead acid.

You can essentially discharge this Scorpion battery (which is probably like 9Ah) about the same amount (of total energy) as a stock flooded cell battery, but they'll be more usable for longer since they put out a higher voltage and have lower self-discharge.

At 130 dollars, you might as well use one of these, because even at higher temperature it'll probably outlast a lead acid which is not much cheaper.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I am pretty much in the same situation. If the car is even together, it is usually only driven on some weekends. When my turbo setup goes on soon I have a Corkys battery tray that I will be mounting to the rear cross member. Dev mentioned keeping this new battery in the factory location for cooling, so I am wondering if it would not be an ideal battery in my situation?


Since I know NOTHING about batteries, what battery would be recommended?

As far as my power requirements, I eventually plan to convert most of my exterior lighting over to LED per Halo's thread(Not Highs/lows). I have a 2000 with 03 head and tail lights, DDM HID's in low beam, Sylverstars in High beam IIRC. Also have a JL 8" sub under the dash and a 250w amp. Other things I will be installing is a pump for A2W setup, Pump for Meth Injection, and a Defi Gauge system.

From the literature from the manufacture for a motorcycle battery they don't recommend installing the battery directly above an engine or by the oil pan. Heat is the enemy of all batteries and it's possible that these batteries have the same heat tolerances but I don't really know. What I do know is that the stock battery location is positioned at the coolest part of the engine bay which receives ventilation from the side vent. I know this area to be ideal based on my intake temperature which is in the general area.
I thought about the cross member as others have done but I decided against it because it is directly in front of the hottest part of the engine which could receive radiated heat from the header, Cat and exhaust.

As far as switching to LEDs, it's a smart move. My 12lb AGM battery was dipping the idle when the lights come on or the heater motor is used but worse was whenever I stepped on the brakes which draws a lot of amps. When I switched to the LED headlights and tail lights that went away which tells me that one of the biggest benefit of LEDs is stiffening up the electrical system especially if you use lightweight batteries but I imagine the extremely low ESR from the lithium technology will act like a capacitor.
Like most electronics they go bad when they see fluctuations in voltage and although sensors are built robustly I think there is a benefit to the overall reliability of the cars electronics.

In regard to the Scorpion battery what I find ideal is the instant feedback about the battery condition. If you see that the battery was drained or a little low you can hook up the cheaply available battery tender lithium jr to top it off safely and it should be able to do it relatively quick. This feature alone makes owning this battery ideal if you only drive your car on occasion.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Some more interesting research.

The company that distributes these batteries. Everything seems to be legit.
http://www.zkemarketing.com/

It would seem that ZKE marketing sources the Scorpion Stinger batteries from Midtronics which is a large manufacture of battery test equipment and battery management technology.
http://www.midtronics.com/
I think the from a manufacturing standpoint it seems to fit the bill and I imagine other rebadged batteries might be out there like what we have seen with the Deka.

Battery arrived just now and I thought I would be amazed at how light it is but I think the hype killed it. I did weigh it and it's exactly 3.5 lbs.
 

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From the literature from the manufacture for a motorcycle battery they don't recommend installing the battery directly above an engine or by the oil pan. Heat is the enemy of all batteries and it's possible that these batteries have the same heat tolerances but I don't really know. What I do know is that the stock battery location is positioned at the coolest part of the engine bay which receives ventilation from the side vent. I know this area to be ideal based on my intake temperature which is in the general area.
I thought about the cross member as others have done but I decided against it because it is directly in front of the hottest part of the engine which could receive radiated heat from the header, Cat and exhaust.

As far as switching to LEDs, it's a smart move. My 12lb AGM battery was dipping the idle when the lights come on or the heater motor is used but worse was whenever I stepped on the brakes which draws a lot of amps. When I switched to the LED headlights and tail lights that went away which tells me that one of the biggest benefit of LEDs is stiffening up the electrical system especially if you use lightweight batteries but I imagine the extremely low ESR from the lithium technology will act like a capacitor.
Like most electronics they go bad when they see fluctuations in voltage and although sensors are built robustly I think there is a benefit to the overall reliability of the cars electronics.

In regard to the Scorpion battery what I find ideal is the instant feedback about the battery condition. If you see that the battery was drained or a little low you can hook up the cheaply available battery tender lithium jr to top it off safely and it should be able to do it relatively quick. This feature alone makes owning this battery ideal if you only drive your car on occasion.
What you have done is reduce the load on the Alt which is not at its most efficient (productive) at lower rpm. When the charging system and battery are in good health the alt provides voltage and amperage required from the car electrical devices including the battery charge.
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
Part one is complete.

The battery bracket is a hair smaller than the battery widthwise. The good news is you won't need any shims. The bad news is you will have to dremel one side using a air dremel with a big stone. Once that is done then the battery case is a nice pressure fit on the bottom of the tray.

The battery is also taller than where hold down bolts should bottom out however the there is plenty of thread to to grab on to before it makes contact with the battery to support it. You can possibly get a small spacer but i suggest just using blue loctite and it should never come off from vibrations. The reason why I chose this mount over others is simple because the hold down runs lengthwise instead of the middle as you find in other solutions. This makes the battery test button and indicator accessible rather than covering it.

As it is this battery mount was designed for a 15lb battery so this is overkill. It does however add an extra pound to the overall weight.


2016-06-23 15.39.43.jpg


The second part will consist of mating the battery and mount to the OEM metal battery support. When it's completed it will be one solid unit that will simply bolt in and can be removed easily for servicing or if the battery needs to be replaced in the future.

I had a chance to measure the voltage and it was resting at 13.2 which is remarkable.
 

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13.2 volts is the nominal voltage for 4 LifeP04 batteries in series. 14.4 volts would register at full charge, 3.6 volts per cell - 4 cells. They accept charging well from 13.6 to 14.6 depending on the specific type of cell.
 

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What I am most curious about is the BMS and how they read and get 3.6 volts to individual cells with just a pos and neg connection. I think I will have to do some research. I just pulled my homemade LifeP04 to check each cell and it is significantly out of balance. I am currently charging the two low cells and the voltage is now reading 14.2v for the complete battery. I had intentionally treated the battery to a harsh environment to see how tough it was, I am impressed with close to 3 years use and still strong. I am thinking the extra voltage may shorten the life of the starter as it was designed for 13~ volts. I am close to 2,000 slight charge cycles currently.
 
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