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I haven't had any issues running either a home made A123 lithium or Factory produced LifeP04 batteries in the six or seven years I have been using them in daily driving from 14 degrees to 99 degrees. I do use two batteries for the 14 degree mornings :) Otherwise it is a very slow start.
Can you link to what you use?
 

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I think the point is that an internal short doesn't lead to a "chain reaction". You get localized heating which destroys the conductors and then it's fine. LTO is well known for its safety. You can crush the entire cell and it won't ignite.

Yes lead acid thrown into a fire could explode too, yet OEMs think it's safe to put AGM lead acid batteries inside the cabin (e.g. Aston Martin).


Where did I say to add a capacitor to that battery? You really aren't reading what I write at all. As long as you have ~200 peak amps available, any lithium chemistry can crank the engine. What I said was that you are crazy to buy a 600+ dollar 24Ah battery when you can treat a cheap 20Ah battery like a disposable lead acid, since they're comparable in price.

If you have a LEAD ACID battery, then capacitors are really useful, because they provide extra peak power when the lead acid battery is low.
No I’m not picking up what you are saying. You are talking about over complicating something there is a very simple and lightweight solution for less than $300 with American customer service and a warranty.

I would love to know if one of these home made batteries would pass tech
 

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No I’m not picking up what you are saying. You are talking about over complicating something there is a very simple and lightweight solution for less than $300 with American customer service and a warranty.

I would love to know if one of these home made batteries would pass tech
Judge for yourself: LiFePO4 Prismatic Battery: 12.8V 20Ah (256Wh, 10C rate) with LED Balancing - UN38.3 Passed (DGR)

It had 3x the capacity of that Scorpion Stinger. I bought a 552CCA Scorpion Stinger in 2017, and it would go flat in ~2 weeks, which to me is unacceptable. It's your money not mine, I'm just trying to tell people how batteries work and actually cost.

I'll also post pictures of my larger 40Ah lithium titanate battery when it arrives. Comes in a H6/group 48 sized hard plastic case with brass leads, charging port, and voltage display.

If you are going to run a non-titanate lithium ion battery below 32F/0C, it MUST BE KEPT FULLY CHARGED either by driving or sitting on a tender (not charging the battery, just handling the parasitic drain) or it will die a quick death. carlbecker's car meets that criteria.
 

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IF the car starts immediately with the addition of a capacitor bank, the bank can be charged from the alternator but there will be a large impulse current during the charge cycle. This large impulse current is due to the very short time constant and can damage the series connected electrical components over time.

Another issue with cheap, stacked, capacitor banks are their temperature and environmental ratings which can become an issue depending on where they are installed. Oh, and large electrolytic capacitors also have leakage current which will be an additional parasitic draw from the sitting battery.

Just a few more things to think about.
True, but again I've gone over this:

Leakage current is under 1mA for a 83F 16V pack, which is already overkill (starts a big V6 as the guy on Youtube demonstrated). The car's standby power is >10 times greater. No issues here whatsoever.

The amount of energy required to start the car is pretty small, and the alternator will charge the capacitor up by the time you put the car in gear and start driving. At those low engine speeds right after starting up and idling, the alternator isn't capable of producing maximum current and damaging itself, and lower voltage isn't going to damage any components.

Large lithium ion batteries also can take much higher charging current than a lead acid, but it hasn't been a problem for people buying EarthX/Antigravity/etc. The high C rate cells in starter batteries are generally rated for at least 3C (and the alternator can in fact force more amperage in than that, damaging the battery as I experienced with my Scorpion Stinger), so a modest 30Ah battery can easily keep the alternator running at 100% rated current for minutes, which is fine since they're designed for that kind of torture.

Obviously, the more capacitance and the less battery you use, the more stress there is on the components. I think a 16F pack would be nice for giving a small 14Ah lead acid battery a bit of a boost when it's getting low, which is around the lowest Ah I would personally feel okay running. The popular 20Ah PC680 might not need that unless you frequently leave the car sitting for a month.
 

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Judge for yourself: LiFePO4 Prismatic Battery: 12.8V 20Ah (256Wh, 10C rate) with LED Balancing - UN38.3 Passed (DGR)

It had 3x the capacity of that Scorpion Stinger. I bought a 552CCA Scorpion Stinger in 2017, and it would go flat in ~2 weeks, which to me is unacceptable. It's your money not mine, I'm just trying to tell people how batteries work and actually cost.

I'll also post pictures of my larger 40Ah lithium titanate battery when it arrives. Comes in a H6/group 48 sized hard plastic case with brass leads, charging port, and voltage display.

If you are going to run a non-titanate lithium ion battery below 32F/0C, it MUST BE KEPT FULLY CHARGED either by driving or sitting on a tender (not charging the battery, just handling the parasitic drain) or it will die a quick death. carlbecker's car meets that criteria.
it’s not hard to be better than a stinger battery. They are trash.

anyone looking for lightweight battery options shouldn’t be driving in 32 degree weather....R compound tires don’t like anything below 40....

If you are daily driving in 32 degree weather you should probably stick with a standard battery.

and definitely not an odyssey battery.
 

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anyone looking for lightweight battery options shouldn’t be driving in 32 degree weather....R compound tires don’t like anything below 40....
That's what I'm trying to change by evangelizing LTO ;) A little bit heavier than LFP, but works better than lead acid in the cold. For people shelling out 800+ bucks for a battery, the higher cost of LTO cells shouldn't be a deterrent. I plan to run my (future, don't currently own one) cars on LTO batteries and hopefully generate some interest on the internet. As I said, I have my ~17lb 40Ah coming in the mail, which is 2lbs more than the Antigravity 40Ah, but it'll shrug off any cold or deep discharge abuse.

People on this forum are a little cheap (and they should be, the cars are cheaper), which is why I suggest the capacitor + lead acid pairing. The pre-assembled modules have casing, spade terminals on thick wires, and fuses, so there's no safety issues.

I don't see anything wrong with wanting a lightweight battery even if your car isn't on sticky rubber. European cars all come with 50+lb batteries which are pretty overkill, and make the car slower. Michelin PS AS4 tires are pretty damn sticky when warm anyhow. I intend to run them on the East Coast year round.
 

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That's what I'm trying to change by evangelizing LTO ;) A little bit heavier than LFP, but works better than lead acid in the cold. For people shelling out 800+ bucks for a battery, the higher cost of LTO cells shouldn't be a deterrent. I plan to run my (future, don't currently own one) cars on LTO batteries and hopefully generate some interest on the internet. As I said, I have my ~17lb 40Ah coming in the mail, which is 2lbs more than the Antigravity 40Ah, but it'll shrug off any cold or deep discharge abuse.

People on this forum are a little cheap (and they should be, the cars are cheaper), which is why I suggest the capacitor + lead acid pairing. The pre-assembled modules have casing, spade terminals on thick wires, and fuses, so there's no safety issues.

I don't see anything wrong with wanting a lightweight battery even if your car isn't on sticky rubber. European cars all come with 50+lb batteries which are pretty overkill, and make the car slower. Michelin PS AS4 tires are pretty damn sticky when warm anyhow. I intend to run them on the East Coast year round.
There is absolutely no reason to run a capacitor paired with a lead acid battery. If you are going to leave your car sitting for long periods of time in the freezing temperatures you should be smart enough to disconnect the battery and bring it inside.

The anti gravity battery is less than 4lbs.

What I’ve noticed is most of the people on this forum aren’t cheap, as quality parts go extremely fast when posted for sale. But there’s a lot of smart people on this forum that have very little automotive knowledge. Keep it simple.
 

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There is absolutely no reason to run a capacitor paired with a lead acid battery. If you are going to leave your car sitting for long periods of time in the freezing temperatures you should be smart enough to disconnect the battery and bring it inside.
Not everyone can keep their cars on a tender, and removing the battery and bringing it indoors is a lot of hassle. Unplugging the battery is an extra step that's irritating, and you wouldn't want to accidentally let your battery go dead because you thought you were going to drive the car but didn't.

Deep cycle lead acid paired with a capacitor achieves low cost, winter usability, reduced weight, and acceptable reserve capacity all at once.

LTO achieves superior performance under all conditions at high cost.

With either of these solutions, I can just leave my car in an unheated garage in the winter and not worry about it for weeks at a time just like with a stock battery, instead of unplugging the battery or god forbid removing it and bringing it inside. Is it really that hard to see why this convenience is desirable?
 

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Judge for yourself: LiFePO4 Prismatic Battery: 12.8V 20Ah (256Wh, 10C rate) with LED Balancing - UN38.3 Passed (DGR)

It had 3x the capacity of that Scorpion Stinger. I bought a 552CCA Scorpion Stinger in 2017, and it would go flat in ~2 weeks, which to me is unacceptable. It's your money not mine, I'm just trying to tell people how batteries work and actually cost.

I'll also post pictures of my larger 40Ah lithium titanate battery when it arrives. Comes in a H6/group 48 sized hard plastic case with brass leads, charging port, and voltage display.

If you are going to run a non-titanate lithium ion battery below 32F/0C, it MUST BE KEPT FULLY CHARGED either by driving or sitting on a tender (not charging the battery, just handling the parasitic drain) or it will die a quick death. carlbecker's car meets that criteria.
That is one reason I drive the spyder daily. The other reason is I enjoy driving it. I got almost 4 years out of my batteries, listed in an earlier thread on batteries. Depending on what I am doing sometimes up to 8 starts during the day. I don't have to get out at 6am to start the spyder anymore, I wait until it is a bit warmer later in the day. Never been charged by anything other than the spyder alternator. I am satisfied.
 

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Not everyone can keep their cars on a tender, and removing the battery and bringing it indoors is a lot of hassle. Unplugging the battery is an extra step that's irritating, and you wouldn't want to accidentally let your battery go dead because you thought you were going to drive the car but didn't.

Deep cycle lead acid paired with a capacitor achieves low cost, winter usability, reduced weight, and acceptable reserve capacity all at once.

LTO achieves superior performance under all conditions at high cost.

With either of these solutions, I can just leave my car in an unheated garage in the winter and not worry about it for weeks at a time just like with a stock battery, instead of unplugging the battery or god forbid removing it and bringing it inside. Is it really that hard to see why this convenience is desirable?
Yes it is hard to see why it’s desirable. I live in an area that rarely goes below freezing. But why someone would want to drive this car in icy, snow etc. conditions is beyond me.

I did used to live in the northeast and never had an issue with starting a conventional off the shelf lead acid battery in 0* weather without a capacitor.

I used to run an optima yellow top in my race car before switching to antigravity. I’ve gone as long as almost 6 months without starting with no tender and it fires up first crank.

I have never left any of my batteries on a tender.

I am having trouble understanding why doing anything half way. I have performance cars and a daily driver.
 

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But hey if it makes you guys happy feeling like you reinvented the wheel by all means enjoy it.

one thing I did find funny though, is you mentioned your battery setup is 17lbs... a stock battery is about 25. And you are advocating for daily drivers (in the snow) being able to enjoy the effects of a lightweight battery... you really think you are going to feel 8lbs??

I’m just really curious if your “innovations” pass tech
 

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Not gonna lie the Spyder is really easy to drive in snow with snow tires because of the weight over the rear driven wheels. I’ve passed AWD Audi’s & SUVs stranded on the side of the road many times. That said, IMHO daily driven requires nothing more than the traditional battery. We all talk about weight reduction, but we spend crazy money to save a couple pounds on batteries before we even think to lift a finger to exercise
 
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I relocated mine mainly because the stock battery didn't leave any space for my custom intake for my 2zz. I first relocated the stock battery but had no room for storage or a spare up front. Once the stock battery died, I went with the odyssey mounted in the frunk tub. So for me it was more about space, not weight. Honestly part of it was that I simply thought it was fun to do a battery relocate on my project car. People get so personally offended about this 'mod' and I am not sure why.
 

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Discussion Starter #36
We all talk about weight reduction, but we spend crazy money to save a couple pounds on batteries before we even think to lift a finger to exercise
I started the post because I am out of space in the engine bay. I need room for my intercooler, heat exchanger(s) and pump. I am not really looking at it from a weight reduction standpoint. Completing the intercooler alone is worth WAY more from a performance standpoint than a few pounds removing a battery will provide. I expect to bump the boost up substantially with the chilled intake charge. Given that I'm in Colorado a large capacity battery for cranking in well below sub zero temperatures is absolutely required. I just need to figure out where to put it.
 

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... an internal short doesn't lead to a "chain reaction". You get localized heating which destroys the conductors and then it's fine..
That is a good explanation. Nonetheless, there are more potential failure modes than we can think of ahead of time, and I would not want to be the index case. :oops:
 

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one thing I did find funny though, is you mentioned your battery setup is 17lbs... a stock battery is about 25. And you are advocating for daily drivers (in the snow) being able to enjoy the effects of a lightweight battery... you really think you are going to feel 8lbs??\
That's for a H6 40Ah battery with a full-function BMS (voltage cutoff, current limiting). The stock battery on the Spyder is a 30lb Group 51R rated at 36Ah. The usable capacities are not comparable.

Let me spell it out: It's meant for a European car :) (I haven't decided which one I want to buy yet). A standard H6 weighs over 50lbs.

Something equivalent in size and capacity to your Antigravity (8.5lbs says the internet) would weigh approximately 10lbs.

I know this is foreign to you...but I only own fun cars as I don't drive to work. I don't even really need a car for grocery shopping. My cars need one lightweight battery which stays put in the car year round, and doesn't sit on a tender (because apartment garage parking doesn't have electrical outlets). There are lots of people in cities in this situation. The battery is the single cheapest weight loss item on a car. We might as well all keep our cars fully stock and never buy any lightweight parts?
 

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Not gonna lie the Spyder is really easy to drive in snow with snow tires because of the weight over the rear driven wheels. I’ve passed AWD Audi’s & SUVs stranded on the side of the road many times. That said, IMHO daily driven requires nothing more than the traditional battery. We all talk about weight reduction, but we spend crazy money to save a couple pounds on batteries before we even think to lift a finger to exercise
Personal weight loss is the the best first step to reducing car weight. Driving with a 1/4 tank of gas also works for a short period of time. Removing unneeded items is the second easiest and cheapest way to reduce car weight. When an item fails that is another way to reduce weight by finding a littler alternative.

It is easier to find a place to relocate something that is smaller. My full size 51r battery weighed 26 pounds. I had been on a weight reduction kick for awhile and had removed 100 pounds at a cost from the spyder. I can not say I noticed the difference as it is not a race car but a daily driver. Still I know there is a bit of improvement, 1% or 5% I don't really know. The spyder is one of my play toys that was also used to commute, now just to enjoy. I don't drive it in the snow and try not to drive it in very salty conditions to avoid more rust issues, so far minor at 20 years. I do switch to A/S tires in cold weather. Summer tires, weight reduction and a bit more power and better suspension are for the warm weather top down twisties. Since I daily drive I have no issues with my chosen battery setup (about 6 lbs total). My car stays outside 24/7/365.
 

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That's for a H6 40Ah battery with a full-function BMS (voltage cutoff, current limiting). The stock battery on the Spyder is a 30lb Group 51R rated at 36Ah. The usable capacities are not comparable.

Let me spell it out: It's meant for a European car :) (I haven't decided which one I want to buy yet). A standard H6 weighs over 50lbs.

Something equivalent in size and capacity to your Antigravity (8.5lbs says the internet) would weigh approximately 10lbs.

I know this is foreign to you...but I only own fun cars as I don't drive to work. I don't even really need a car for grocery shopping. My cars need one lightweight battery which stays put in the car year round, and doesn't sit on a tender (because apartment garage parking doesn't have electrical outlets). There are lots of people in cities in this situation. The battery is the single cheapest weight loss item on a car. We might as well all keep our cars fully stock and never buy any lightweight parts?
I've said multiple times the anti gravity is less than 4lbs. 3.79 to be exact, to replace the group 51, same exact battery in my race car. Not only does it weigh less but physically smaller. But hey, if you are happy with your setup more power to you. I also only own fun cars, My daily driver is a BMW 135i Msport 😁
 
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