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Discussion Starter #1
This is a long shot but if anyone anywhere is going to know this is probably where I would find them.

The Megasquirt 3 is perfectly capable of controlling the cam phase angle and lift on the 2ZZGE engine with some slight hardware modification of the intake cam. Obviously I don't want to do that.

The 1zz/2zz engines use an odd trigger pattern on the intake cam for VVT phase angle. There are three lobes all 90° out. So in effect the trigger on the cam is a 4-1. Unfortunately the MS3 can't use the supra 2JZ VVT trigger pattern because that is a 3-0 with the lobes at 120°

Has anyone been able to use the stock cam trigger lobes with a Megasquirt WITHOUT grinding down two of them? If so, what firmware, what settings for the cam trigger? I want to be able to go back to the sock ECU if need be.
 

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Very interested in this info also since the MS3 is the ECU I am interested in.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Charles,

The MS3-MSX will work just fine with the 1zz/2zz. All you really have to do is grind down two of the cam timing lobes. It's super easy. If you don't have emissions to worry about go for it. The MS3 is one of the best EMS's out there. For the money it certainly is the most value.

I emailed a gentleman in the UK last night who works on firmware for the MS3. He was modifying the supra 2JZ trigger firmware to use with the 1zz a few years ago. The thread kind of dropped dead when the guy installing the MS on his zz-series engine stopped posting after the prototype firmware was sent to him. So, either it worked and he never checked back in or he gave up and never checked back in. I'm leaning toward this having worked since other cars have similar trigger patterns. Also, there are videos with MS3 running 2ZZ's with a lot of power. One hit just shy of 210WHP with an unopened engine. There is no way they did that without controlling cam phase. I saw the dyno curve and it looked clean. So I highly doubt they simply switched to full advance. While they said unopened engine I do suppose they could have removed the extra trigger points from the intake cam.

Anyway, still hoping someone chimes in with some info.
 

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Thanks for the info but I am exactly in the same boat as you. I want to be able to go back to the stock ecu if I need to do some troubleshooting.

Can you tell me where you bought yours?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I have had mine for several years. I was going to use this one on my V50 turbo wagon but could not work out the addresses to control the variable center differential over CAN from the MS3. So, it has sat a while. I bought it from a company that resells the B&G hardware. They build NASCAR engines and helped me out with a discount. I still had to crack the thing open to add the internal knock hardware and power the bluetooth transceiver. This will be my 4th Megasquirt install and my 1st with a swappable patch harness for emissions.

If you go MS3, I think I have worked out how to operate the Toyota evap system from the EMS. We can trade configurations if you like. What is your time table for install?
 

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This project is planned for early 2020.

I now have my 2ZZ fully fonctionnal (finally) and want to abuse it 1 racing season before I put any more money on it.
 

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I may sound a little bit too optimistic, but I also considered MS3 as a project to get myself familiar with ECU and tuning.
My first impression from reading specs was "that thing should be able to control anything!", so I got really confused that such thing as cam sensor pattern can really mess things up. Although reading forums community seems to be quite responsive and adding such thing as not-so-odd sensor should not be a big deal. I found older posts with modified firmware provided to someone and in other thread guy seems to got 1ZZ running using 2JZ mode, but I don't really understand how...
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I may sound a little bit too optimistic, but I also considered MS3 as a project to get myself familiar with ECU and tuning.
My first impression from reading specs was "that thing should be able to control anything!", so I got really confused that such thing as cam sensor pattern can really mess things up. Although reading forums community seems to be quite responsive and adding such thing as not-so-odd sensor should not be a big deal. I found older posts with modified firmware provided to someone and in other thread guy seems to got 1ZZ running using 2JZ mode, but I don't really understand how...

Possible solution #1: I did quite a lot of reading last night since information is spotty and weak regarding a 4-1 cam pickup and how the current MS3 firmware views the pulse. As best I can tell the MS low level code counts (ignores) pulses for multi trigger setups (I.E. 2JZ) and then triggers (synchronizes) on the final pulse. In other words setting the 2JZ mode should work but the cam angle reading will be wrong. The MS3 code does not use cam pulse to derive rate of change for engine speed. So, it wont really matter for running the engine since the synchronization pulse still tells the MS3 if the piston is on compression or exhaust stroke.

For zz engine tuners where we will see a slight bug will be in the read cam angle. The reading will likely be ~60° off at the cam. So, cam advance angles will not be what you expect. The cam angle will simply be offset by the difference between the 2jz final lobe and the 2zz final lobe angles. However, this should not matter since anyone tuning this engine will be checking full retard and full advance of the cam phase control anyway. Timing settings can then be calculated off of these base angles to generate a target cam phase angle table. Not too bad.

Possible solution #2: I also found an alternative that some of the old Red Block Volvo guys use. This trick should work in our situation too. Since the cam has a sizable gap between the transmission side aluminum cover and the end of the intake cam it should be possible to tap a small thread near the edge of the cam and install a tiny allen head bolt to use as a trigger. The flat timing cover over the transmission could then be modified for a stand alone pickup. Reports are that this works well. I am trying to find some pictures so that others can visualize what was being discussed on the Volvo forum.

Possible solution #3: The Liter bike pickup method. The 2zz engine has fairly short duration low speed cam lobes. There are clear reports of people using a cam lobe itself as a trigger on other engines. One could weld a fitting to the timing cover and directly read a pulse off of a low speed cam lobe. It's not the most elegant solution but it should work. The drawback is going to be a slight cam phase angle drift with RPM. I.E. you should technically read more cam advance (even if it's not) as RPM's rise since the PGT pulse will trigger the MS3 earlier (as I understand currently however sometimes these signals are attenuated with speed increase) as RPM's rise. Again, something that can be tuned for. The liter bike guys say that doing this has its limits around 9500 RPM. So beware if you plan to try this method.
 

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Yes, but still - probably the best solution will be to finally make it work with OEM cam pickup setup in software.
By the way, is there patch harness available for MR2? I tired and could't to find any. Or you supose to make one off old ECU with plugs?
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I'm making a patch harness from a Digikey connector and an old harness. However, it appears that this Denso ECU plug pattern is shared with several other cars. I dont remember off the top of my head but Subaru and some 1JZ model toyotas come to mind.
 

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Ok, looks like ECU has Nippon Denso Style 122 pin connector, there are breakout boards for it, no problem with this.
I was looking at UK forum and guys there seem to have great experience with Ecumaster EMU Black ECU. Some UK shop offered a package consisting of wiring adapter, ECU and dyno tune and several cars are already running on this setup (including 1ZZ, 2ZZ, fored incuction and NA)
This again makes me thinking that getting 4-1 cam sensor in MS3 to work should not be a big deal...
Also interesting that they couldn't make dash fully functional, so they had to keep original ECU for water temp, oil warning, AC and probably some other stuff... Had anyone dealt with this before? Making it run on any standalone with OEM dash fully functional? And it's not on CAN, it's some other kind of network.
I wonder hop PFC deals with it...
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Ok, looks like ECU has Nippon Denso Style 122 pin connector, there are breakout boards for it, no problem with this.
I was looking at UK forum and guys there seem to have great experience with Ecumaster EMU Black ECU. Some UK shop offered a package consisting of wiring adapter, ECU and dyno tune and several cars are already running on this setup (including 1ZZ, 2ZZ, fored incuction and NA)
This again makes me thinking that getting 4-1 cam sensor in MS3 to work should not be a big deal...
Also interesting that they couldn't make dash fully functional, so they had to keep original ECU for water temp, oil warning, AC and probably some other stuff... Had anyone dealt with this before? Making it run on any standalone with OEM dash fully functional? And it's not on CAN, it's some other kind of network.
I wonder hop PFC deals with it...
The data bus to the dash is Toyota techstream or something like that. Not exactly CAN. If it was the MS3 could talk to it just fine. Here's what you get with the MS3 only on the Toyota dash:

Tach
Speed
Fuel
CEL control

You wont have without the Toyota ECU
Water temp
oil pressure light

FWIW, you can shut down the engine on oil pressure with the MS3 and you can trigger the MIL on overtemp in the MS3

Regarding the aircon... I have been looking at that and considering what to do. Here's what we have:
ACMG, LCKI, PRE
This can be easily handled with a cheap control board and some simple logic. It MAY be possible to do this with the MS3 using just ACMG and PRE in the aux controls and spare DI/O of the MSX board. The newer firmwares have the capability to do some logic AND time delays. By stringing them together it could potentially allow the MS3 to control the AC. I have heard of other people running AC controls from the MS3. So, it's a thing that can be done one way or another. FWIW the MegaTune software does have AC idle up configuration if I remember correctly. Either way I will clearly document how I go about getting the AC working. No way in hell am I driving around without it! Not after all the effort I put into getting the AC ice cold during the 100°F days here in the south.


THE PFC:
The PFC has a Toyota compatible data bus. So it talks to the dash directly. The catch is that you have to use a PFC and they are really poor ECU's. Honestly I would rather run the FIC-6 and let the OEM computer handle knock and enrichment.
 

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Yes, that guy seems to got vvt working, I found his topic about vvt gear issue some time later and he diagnosed it using MS:
https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?topic=63447.0

Regarding AC I don't really care because I don't have it (UK spec car) :)))
I wonder if it's possible to make some device in between MS and dash that will be able to trasform CAM or analogue signals from MS in format acceptable to dash? I mean, using only CEL as you proposed sounds totally fine, but is it possible/realistic?
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Yes, that guy seems to got vvt working, I found his topic about vvt gear issue some time later and he diagnosed it using MS:
https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?topic=63447.0

Regarding AC I don't really care because I don't have it (UK spec car) :)))
I wonder if it's possible to make some device in between MS and dash that will be able to trasform CAM or analogue signals from MS in format acceptable to dash? I mean, using only CEL as you proposed sounds totally fine, but is it possible/realistic?
So, you're missing the temperature gauge. The MS can send the tach and control the CEL. Compared with reverse engineering a digital protocol and developing a CA->Totota converter.... It would be WAY less effort to just open the dash and (assuming temp is a potentiometer) just feed that with a scaled voltage directly. You absolutely could connect direct to the oil pressure indicator light. I'ts not really that big of a deal and most people like aftermarket gauges (I dont ). FWIW you have temperature on any MS display too.

You can always wire up the stock computer too in parallel running the AC and the temperature gauge and oil light but that's not ideal.
 

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Hi, I'm the guy who made those previous posts :D

I'm running the MS3X on my MR2 as a replacement for the standard ECU, I'm using the 2JZ setting and I can confirm that it works correctly, with no need to grind off any of the lobes off. I never looked into how it works but as suggested I suspect it doesn't look at the gap between lobes just between the missing tooth and the next lobe. In the VVT settings you enter the timing angles when the cam is fully retarded and advanced so I guess this allows for the lobes to be in different positions.

These are the dashboard items that don't work with the standard ecu removed temperature gauge, oil pressure, battery charging, and handbrake light, I haven't got aircon so I can't say if any of that is effected. The handbrake light was a bit of a surprise as the switch connects directly to the dashboard, I suspect that if the controller on the dashboard doesn't receive any communication from the ECU it shuts down and won't do anything.

I have got round the dashboard issue by using the MPX1 and 2 wires to the dash as a CAN BUS from the MS3 and then using an arduino to decode the data and control the dash, which works ok. The temp gauge isn't a simple two wire thing which makes it a bit more complicated.

I should be able to help if you have any questions
 

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Hi, I'm the guy who made those previous posts :D

I'm running the MS3X on my MR2 as a replacement for the standard ECU, I'm using the 2JZ setting and I can confirm that it works correctly, with no need to grind off any of the lobes off. I never looked into how it works but as suggested I suspect it doesn't look at the gap between lobes just between the missing tooth and the next lobe. In the VVT settings you enter the timing angles when the cam is fully retarded and advanced so I guess this allows for the lobes to be in different positions.

These are the dashboard items that don't work with the standard ecu removed temperature gauge, oil pressure, battery charging, and handbrake light, I haven't got aircon so I can't say if any of that is effected. The handbrake light was a bit of a surprise as the switch connects directly to the dashboard, I suspect that if the controller on the dashboard doesn't receive any communication from the ECU it shuts down and won't do anything.

I have got round the dashboard issue by using the MPX1 and 2 wires to the dash as a CAN BUS from the MS3 and then using an arduino to decode the data and control the dash, which works ok. The temp gauge isn't a simple two wire thing which makes it a bit more complicated.

I should be able to help if you have any questions
 
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