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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Goto the second post for better information from Cap, I have just documented my short experience with pictures for better clarity and brief description.





These are on cylinder 1 and 2 and the same should apply for the obx I believe but cap will be in shortly.



In discussion with cap over how to fix this problem, On my PPE header (not obx) where cylinders 1 and 4 are on top and cylinder 2 and 3 on bottom at the collection point, we came to this method for solving the single o2 sensor problem for ecu's that do not like that solution.

My headers were previously coated with .25mm thick ceramic coating and worried about the coating burning off while welding but afterwards nothing happened and the coating burned about 1/8th" outwards, covered it up with some flat black high temp paint and all is well. After drilling the holes to proper diameter, got a couple o2 bungs (check twice comes in handy when doing placement, you'll see my mistake of adding an extra bung to low) and placed the sensors where they sit about 1/8th" into the exhaust flow, its been about 6 months since and holding well, having 350+ miles per tank of gas.

Edit: when I asked about placement of O2 bungs I was told 12" from any bend in an exhaust flow, seeing as we can't get that much distance from the top of the header it would be best to try placing the sensors 1-2in from the top of subframe to avoid interference from WOT when the engine rocks back on stock rubber mounts.

On to the test pipe only I picked up a 90 o2 sensor spacer to simulate after cat conditions and same applies, the cel has since disappeared and engine running flawlessly.

I'm hoping Cap can further my explanation but I'm out of town so that'll do it for now. Any questions I can try and answer but no extra pics until Monday 5/6/13.

Hopefully we can get this stickied with more technical information and build some research on this. We got it Stickied, Thanks DaSpyda!

I'll add in as far as I know there hasn't been a documentation of the obx header so feel free to post your experience in the process of your solution.
 

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The 1ZZ Spyder is Four Cylinder engine, with TWO Pre-Cats in the Exhaust Manifold from the factory. These were placed close to the Engine to allow for a Quick heat up resulting in lower exhaust emissions sooner on a cold engine. As a result of these Pre-Cats, the Engine Control Unit (ECU) will have one ‘Fuel control Bank’ that will be making Fuel Mixture Choices for each Pre-Cat Chamber. This results in TWO Separated Fuel decision Systems in the Spyder.
The key feedback component of the ECU fueling control, is the O2 Sensors located above each of the Pre-Cat Chambers. If the exhaust gas that each O2 Sensor ‘Snifs’, is only vapors that are a result of it’s decision-making process, then we have a ‘Stable Feed Back Loop’. The Circuit Makes a choice, and looks to its sensor to see the result. It will then make correction and look for the result. It’s called a Feed Back Loop. As the outcome of the last choice, are factored in the next desision it will make.

In a 4:1 Exhaust System, you are removing the Pre-Cats (with it’s short piping), and are taking all FOUR longer exhaust pipes, and placing them into ONE Collector for the exhaust system to take away. Performance wise this is great.. It’s been done for years with good results. The problem IN THE SPYDER ONLY, is it has TWO fueling circuits that are trying to keep the mixture of each system proper, but you have just now combined all the exhaust gasses into one place. The Feedback Loop can no longer Snif only it’s ‘Gasses’, it gets an average of Both Fueling Choices. So the exhaust is ‘Contaminated’ by the ‘Other bank’ choices. Each Loop can no longer perform its task.

You have increased the Exhaust System Efficiency, but handicapped the ECU.

A solution to this problem, was to ‘Split’ the O2 Sensor Signals to both fueling banks. You take to Blue and White wires from one collector mounted O2 Sensor, and feed BOTH O2 Sensor Plugs in the Engine bay. This procedure worked, to a degree. Some of the limits are
1) Only one O2 Sensor heater is drawing power from the ECU. A separate 30 Ohm 50 Watt resistor is needed as a ‘Dummy Load’ for the ECU to be happy. The resistor is hooked to the two Black Wires, and placed where it will not burn anything.
2) Splicing is required on ‘Difficult to Splice’ wires. The wire is likely Stainless Steel and is almost impossible to solder. These Splices are located where moisture and heat are common visitors. Splice failures will occur.
3) The ECU is still not able to make ‘Decisive’ choices about the Fueling of each Bank, and will not build what are called ‘Fuel Trims’. These enable the ECU to predict fueling choices necessary.

The 100% solution for the 4:1 Problem, is let the ECU and the Exhaust do the jobs they are designed to do. Just change the Formula a little.
Fuel Bank One is comprised of Cylinder One and Cylinder Four, and it is Sniffed by O2 Sensor Bank One Sensor One ( B1S1). Fuel Bank Two is comprised of Cylinder Two and Cylinder Three and it is Sniffed by O2 Sensor Bank Two Sensor One (B2S1).
Because the Pre-Cat Chambers were removed, we no longer have a place where the O2’s can just sniff a Combined exhaust stream of B1 and B2. BUT we do still have available four separate exhaust streams still in the pipes.
PROVIDED the Fuel Injectors are performing the same, the Exhaust that is located in Pipe One and Pipe Four will be the same (Same Bank and same mixture), and the Exhaust that is in Pipe Two and Pipe Three, will be the same(Same Bank Same Mixture).

If we place an ‘O2 Sensor Bung’ in Pipe One and another one in Pipe Two, we will have accesses to the exhaust gasses that ONLY contain the choices of each fueling bank. Pipe One will have the Signal that is needed for B1S1 ( Passenger Side of the Car Plug ), and Pipe Two will have the Signal that is needed for B2S1 ( Drivers Side of the Car Plug).
This way we can still run the 4:1 Header Design that is popular, and the ECU will still be able to have access to Full Functioning O2 Sensors that are located ONLY in the proper Gas Stream.

Pros and Con of this ‘Fix’?..

Con:
1)Need to have access to a welder to add additional Bungs.
2)Will burn off any coating/paint on the header.
3)Bank Two O2 Sensor (Left Side) is too short to use ‘As Is’. Need to use a ‘Post Cat’ O2 Sensor to get one with long enough leads.
4) Header looks ‘Out of Balance’ as the O2 sensors are in the ‘Wrong Place’
5) Only detecting the Fuel Mixture on Two Cylinders. WHEN the injectors start to clog, poor performance will Likely show up as a 420 code, causing some troubleshooting confusion.

Pro:
1) ECU will build Long and Short Fuel Trims for both Banks, resulting in better performance.
2) NO SPLICING OF WIRES!


If you choose not to do the 'Additional Bungs' method, but still want a Simpler Wire Splicing Method without the 'Dummy Load' resistor, you can take a SINGLE O2 Sensor and Split it in BOTH Signal and Heater Loads..

Here is a picture of the O2 Sensor pig Tail going to the O2 Sensor.. be careful to orient the exact same way.. check by looking at the notches on the plug..



MAKE SURE YOU HAVE ENOUGH WIRE TO MAKE THE CONNECTIONS PROPERLY.. and keep the splices high in the engine bay..

You will take the top left wire on BOTH plugs ( Blue ) .. and hook them together with the BLUE from the O2 Sensor..
You will take the Top Right Wire on Both Plugs ( White ) and hook them together with the White wire from the O2 Sensor..

So far what you have done is to 'Split' the O2 Sensor Sig to each side of the engine bay..

Now we have to 'Split the heater Load'.. this can get confusing.. as all the wire colors are the same.. we are interested in the Position of them in the plug.. not the color.. If you screw up this next part, you will blow fuses.. or at worse, blow your ECU.. so proceed with caution.

You will take the Bottom Left wire on BOTH plugs and hook them together.. ( MAKE SURE ITs THE BOTTOM LEFT.. do not confuse as the colors are the same ).. and you will hook these to one of the Black wires going to the O2 Sensor.. at this point it does not matter which black wire to the O2 Sensor you use..
You will take the Bottom Right wire on Both Plugs ( again Black.. Verify LOCATION in the plug ) and hook them to the other black wire in the O2 Sensor.. you should not have any wires left over..

What we have now done is share the heater load between BOTH banks of the ECU.. you will end up with a SINGLE O2 Sensor that has TWO plugs on it.. and if done properly will not blow any fuses when you turn on the Key.. This will allow you to remove and replace the O2 Sensor, without having to mess with an 'Additional Resistor ' of some sort that is always in the way.. Simplifying wiring.

I recommend Crimping the Connections, coating with RTV to waterproof( just a little ), and then wrap with tape..
God luck.. and remember.. if you let the smoke out of the ECU, it will not work anymore..

Cons of this Split System:

1)If not done properly, the ECU is toast
2)Does not solve the 'No Fuel Trims' issue

Pros:

1) all parts are available with what is in the car, as no sourcing of additional resistor is necessary
2) Simplifies Wiring in the Engine Bay.
3) Splices are Up out of the water spray during Driving.
4) No Dummy Heater to have to mount somewhere safe

Cap
 

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If you choose not to do the 'Additional Bungs' method, but still want a Simpler Wire Splicing Method without the 'Dummy Load' resistor, you can take a SINGLE O2 Sensor and Split it in BOTH Signal and Heater Loads..

Here is a picture of the O2 Sensor pig Tail going to the O2 Sensor.. be careful to orient the exact same way.. check by looking at the notches on the plug..



MAKE SURE YOU HAVE ENOUGH WIRE TO MAKE THE CONNECTIONS PROPERLY.. and keep the splices high in the engine bay..

You will take the top left wire on BOTH plugs ( Blue ) .. and hook them together with the BLUE from the O2 Sensor..
You will take the Top Right Wire on Both Plugs ( White ) and hook them together with the White wire from the O2 Sensor..

So far what you have done is to 'Split' the O2 Sensor Sig to each side of the engine bay..

Now we have to 'Split the heater Load'.. this can get confusing.. as all the wire colors are the same.. we are interested in the Position of them in the plug.. not the color.. If you screw up this next part, you will blow fuses.. or at worse, blow your ECU.. so proceed with caution.

You will take the Bottom Left wire on BOTH plugs and hook them together.. ( MAKE SURE ITs THE BOTTOM LEFT.. do not confuse as the colors are the same ).. and you will hook these to one of the Black wires going to the O2 Sensor.. at this point it does not matter which black wire to the O2 Sensor you use..
You will take the Bottom Right wire on Both Plugs ( again Black.. Verify LOCATION in the plug ) and hook them to the other black wire in the O2 Sensor.. you should not have any wires left over..

What we have now done is share the heater load between BOTH banks of the ECU.. you will end up with a SINGLE O2 Sensor that has TWO plugs on it.. and if done properly will not blow any fuses when you turn on the Key.. This will allow you to remove and replace the O2 Sensor, without having to mess with an 'Additional Resistor ' of some sort that is always in the way.. Simplifying wiring.

I recommend Crimping the Connections, coating with RTV to waterproof( just a little ), and then wrap with tape..
God luck.. and remember.. if you let the smoke out of the ECU, it will not work anymore..

Cons of this Split System:

1)If not done properly, the ECU is toast
2)Does not solve the 'No Fuel Trims' issue.
I wouldn't recommend this method.
Dual O2 Sensors is the way to go.
 

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zerahvoid, it looks like you are using 25mm extender bungs for the relocation of the 2 upper sensors. What's the reason for that? Would using regular bungs (i.e. like the short ones that come with the header) be OK?


Thanks,
Jeff
 

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Discussion Starter #5
The reason is you don't want to interrupt the flow of the "equal length header" so it'd be better if they were just barely in the flow of the exhaust. They don't need to be in the flow or that will disrupt the flow pattern, and possibly lose what little gains you get anyways. This was discussed by me and cap while doing some previous revisions that just never worked (like you mention why I'm using two short bungs welded together to make one extended bung, it just works and its simple as that frankly.) I wish had taken more photos during the fab process but I get so into my work the camera just sits in the car.
 

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The reason is you don't want to interrupt the flow of the "equal length header" so it'd be better if they were just barely in the flow of the exhaust. They don't need to be in the flow or that will disrupt the flow pattern, and possibly lose what little gains you get anyways. This was discussed by me and cap while doing some previous revisions that just never worked (like you mention why I'm using two short bungs welded together to make one extended bung, it just works and its simple as that frankly.) I wish had taken more photos during the fab process but I get so into my work the camera just sits in the car.
Are you saying that using the short bungs would not work at all? Or just with reduced performance with the disrupted flow pattern?

Wouldn't the ECU run the car too lean with the extension? Since the sensors are not getting the full O2 readings with it.

Thanks,
Jeff
 

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With the Short Bungs, the O2 Sensor is in the Flow Path more.. it will cut down the flow SOME.. how much.. It's a guess..

No the mixture will not change.. the wind is moving by and the ONLY atmosphere that the O2 Sensor is exposed to is the Exhaust Gas.. by moving the O2 Sensor back a little you will reduce the response time.. How Much.. it all a guess..


What he did worked and felt proper when he was doing it..

You can do what you like.. and if it feels proper to you.. do it..

Cap
 

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Do you have a length for the bungs that were used. 25mm was mentioned. Have been wondering about this myself and on asking PPE they were not very helpful with options. My header is coated but I think it will be worth doing this to do it right. Thanks for the write up.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Right, they were 15mm bungs and I used x2 to make x1 30mm bung, I had other plans that I changed just before working on the header.

My reasoning for setting the O2 sensors outside of the exhaust flow was behind the stock header, if the stock placement O2 sensor were not directly in the exhaust flow (the pre cat chamber) then I should go ahead replicate that as close as possible.

Everything still running strong if anyone is considering a proper fix for there PPE/ obx setup.
 

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I'm bumping this up because there is one solution I didn't see talked about often but I'm sure has been done before.

It is to have both o2 sensors plugged into the normal o2 sensor ports both in the PPE collector. However, crimp the blue/white wires which are the O2 readings together like you would normally do but leave the heater circuit alone in both O2s. This way the heater still works properly and you don't risk blowing your ecu and the O2 reading is only coming from one O2 sensor so the fuel trims for each bank will not be fighting each other. Your fuel trims should be identical for both banks since it is taking it from the same sensor.

The downside is that if one injector is dirty/clogged/etc it could cause problems in that one cylinder. But even with the o2s placed in the primaries as described in this thread you still run that same risk, just to a lesser degree since a dirty injector would only falsely affect one other primary as opposed to my method here which would affect all four cylinders but to a lesser degree. I think I have two spare O2 sensors so I'm going to try this method out and record my fuel trims beforehand with the stock gutted header and see how they compare to the PPE with only 1 o2 sensor reading. If they are very different I will install the o2 bungs in primaries 1&2 and check fuel trims then.

It might be a good idea to get my injectors cleaned/flow tested no matter which method I go with. This isn't anything new or groundbreaking but I haven't see anyone post their fuel trims before and after the ppe header regardless of how they run their O2s. I know both methods have been used successfully but I don't think anyone has not had the O2s in the primaries 1/2 not work. Some have had the split o2 sensor not work I have read but I'm not sure if that's because they messed up the heater circuit wiring.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Great for further experimenting, but I never really noted why I ventured into modifying my header the way it is but I did pay PPE for their harness and worked great but shortly went out on me 2 months later.

Keep us updated!

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk
 

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I am by no means an engineer/master mechanic.....but if both O2 sensors are providing each system with the same O2 reading, and the air intake is adjusted in a closed loop for each system..... then wouldn't both systems be looping relatively the same afr?......and if both systems are producing the same AFR and are working in unison to turn the crank.....doesn't that provide equal and balanced forces acting on the crank....resulting in better efficiency (power)?? I mean imagine a canoe with four people rowing...

If this were true, then it would mean that the positioning/placement of the stock O2 sensors in the precats(from what I understand, were designed for strict emission standards)..... was more of a "green" design rather than a "HORSEPOWER" one?

At worse the ecu would be getting an "old" signal (you running a leaner mix?)
 

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I'm bumping this up because there is one solution I didn't see talked about often but I'm sure has been done before.

It is to have both o2 sensors plugged into the normal o2 sensor ports both in the PPE collector. However, crimp the blue/white wires which are the O2 readings together like you would normally do but leave the heater circuit alone in both O2s. This way the heater still works properly and you don't risk blowing your ecu and the O2 reading is only coming from one O2 sensor so the fuel trims for each bank will not be fighting each other. Your fuel trims should be identical for both banks since it is taking it from the same sensor.

The downside is that if one injector is dirty/clogged/etc it could cause problems in that one cylinder. But even with the o2s placed in the primaries as described in this thread you still run that same risk, just to a lesser degree since a dirty injector would only falsely affect one other primary as opposed to my method here which would affect all four cylinders but to a lesser degree. I think I have two spare O2 sensors so I'm going to try this method out and record my fuel trims beforehand with the stock gutted header and see how they compare to the PPE with only 1 o2 sensor reading. If they are very different I will install the o2 bungs in primaries 1&2 and check fuel trims then.

It might be a good idea to get my injectors cleaned/flow tested no matter which method I go with. This isn't anything new or groundbreaking but I haven't see anyone post their fuel trims before and after the ppe header regardless of how they run their O2s. I know both methods have been used successfully but I don't think anyone has not had the O2s in the primaries 1/2 not work. Some have had the split o2 sensor not work I have read but I'm not sure if that's because they messed up the heater circuit wiring.
This is how the wiring is laid out on the PPE setup. Split blue and white wire, black wires left alone. This setup works, but I don't think you get optimal power or fuel efficiency from that setup. I ran for about 10,000 miles with that setup without any issues. The downside that I see is that the crimps seem to be the failure point of this setup, as the environment is pretty harsh. I think the crimping failures is what most people are having problems with. I also do not like the idea of a O2 on a single pipe either, but it is another solution to not running.
 

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Help!

I'm sitting in the same boat. I ordered a full PPE kit: intake, header, mid-pipe with high-flow cat and single exit exhaust.

• Started to run rough – Check Engine Light – Fault codes P0172 and P0174
• The guys at the shop went over the car, rechecking all the work – no issues with splicing or wiring harness
• Compression on all cylinders is fine, coil packs and plugs are all working
• Disconnecting the battery clears the issue for about an hour, then fault codes P0301 and P0304 (misfires, cylinders 1 & 4) pop up

In reading this thread, it seems like I may have the same issue, but I'm having difficulty believing PPE would sell a system that required modifying it by installing another (3rd) bung. I really dislike the idea of breaking through the ceramic coat - rust is what killed my last exhaust, I wanted a system that would last longer.

It is a 4-1, with 2 bungs located at the collection point, although the description on MWR states differently:
A single oxygen sensor is positioned in the collector of the header. A custom wiring harness (included) allows the signal of the oxgen sensor to be sent to both connectors on the stock wiring harness. (modification to the stock O2 sensor harness is required)
When used with the ceramic coated High Flow Cat you can expect gains of 8hp with no other modifications. The bolt on and does NOT set off the Check Engine Light.

For the set-up where there is a 4-1 with 2 bungs at the collection point - is the splice method mentioned above a viable method?


Right now my car is sitting in a shop, costing me money, sleep and stress. :(
 

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I see your choices as..

A solution to this problem, was to ‘Split’ the O2 Sensor Signals to both fueling banks. You take to Blue and White wires from one collector mounted O2 Sensor, and feed BOTH O2 Sensor Plugs in the Engine bay. This procedure worked, to a degree. Some of the limits are
1) Only one O2 Sensor heater is drawing power from the ECU. A separate 30 Ohm 50 Watt resistor is needed as a ‘Dummy Load’ for the ECU to be happy. The resistor is hooked to the two Black Wires, and placed where it will not burn anything.
2) Splicing is required on ‘Difficult to Splice’ wires. The wire is likely Stainless Steel and is almost impossible to solder. These Splices are located where moisture and heat are common visitors. Splice failures will occur.
3) The ECU is still not able to make ‘Decisive’ choices about the Fueling of each Bank, and will not build what are called ‘Fuel Trims’. These enable the ECU to predict fueling choices necessary.
Or

If you choose not to do the 'Additional Bungs' method, but still want a Simpler Wire Splicing Method without the 'Dummy Load' resistor, you can take a SINGLE O2 Sensor and Split it in BOTH Signal and Heater Loads..

Here is a picture of the O2 Sensor pig Tail going to the O2 Sensor.. be careful to orient the exact same way.. check by looking at the notches on the plug..



MAKE SURE YOU HAVE ENOUGH WIRE TO MAKE THE CONNECTIONS PROPERLY.. and keep the splices high in the engine bay..

You will take the top left wire on BOTH plugs ( Blue ) .. and hook them together with the BLUE from the O2 Sensor..
You will take the Top Right Wire on Both Plugs ( White ) and hook them together with the White wire from the O2 Sensor..

So far what you have done is to 'Split' the O2 Sensor Sig to each side of the engine bay..

Now we have to 'Split the heater Load'.. this can get confusing.. as all the wire colors are the same.. we are interested in the Position of them in the plug.. not the color.. If you screw up this next part, you will blow fuses.. or at worse, blow your ECU.. so proceed with caution.

You will take the Bottom Left wire on BOTH plugs and hook them together.. ( MAKE SURE ITs THE BOTTOM LEFT.. do not confuse as the colors are the same ).. and you will hook these to one of the Black wires going to the O2 Sensor.. at this point it does not matter which black wire to the O2 Sensor you use..
You will take the Bottom Right wire on Both Plugs ( again Black.. Verify LOCATION in the plug ) and hook them to the other black wire in the O2 Sensor.. you should not have any wires left over..

What we have now done is share the heater load between BOTH banks of the ECU.. you will end up with a SINGLE O2 Sensor that has TWO plugs on it.. and if done properly will not blow any fuses when you turn on the Key.. This will allow you to remove and replace the O2 Sensor, without having to mess with an 'Additional Resistor ' of some sort that is always in the way.. Simplifying wiring.

I recommend Crimping the Connections, coating with RTV to waterproof( just a little ), and then wrap with tape..
God luck.. and remember.. if you let the smoke out of the ECU, it will not work anymore..

Cons of this Split System:

1)If not done properly, the ECU is toast
2)Does not solve the 'No Fuel Trims' issue

Pros:

1) all parts are available with what is in the car, as no sourcing of additional resistor is necessary
2) Simplifies Wiring in the Engine Bay.
3) Splices are Up out of the water spray during Driving.
4) No Dummy Heater to have to mount somewhere safe


Depends on how good your shop is..

If they are idiots, I'd do the First..

If they are good, I'd do the second..

The second is more dangerous if they get it wrong.. but does not need a 'Dummy Load' somewhere..


OR.. just pull the O2 Sensor Plugs ( both of them ) in the engine bay, and drive it home and do it yourself.. after you do a battery reset on the ECU ( 10 Minutes disconnected )

Cap
 

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I would really weld the two additional o2 bungs in the primary pipes. Its the foolproof way that has never failed. The splicing method works for some and fails for others. So you did no wiring just plugged the two o2s in? Or did you use a harness that was provided?
 

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Thanks Cap. They're a good shop, so I'll discuss the options they're comfortable with. Honestly, you were kinda who I was hoping would answer, so thanks for the reply.

Levi, to answer your question, I really don't want to screw up the ceramic coat. I bought these because I wanted a system that won't rust out.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Just posting that I am still sharing the link for anybody looking for a proper fix! And that I'm at 160k running strong with same setup.
 

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Wanted to thank you for your great documentation and fix of the PPE O2 sensor issue. I spent over a year trying different mods on my 02 Spyder with PPE header and wasn't happy with the results until I modified the header. The original owner was running the split wiring that came with the header, along with a test pipe. I added a PPE converter, but still had issues with CEL and consistently good drivability until I made the header mod this last winter.

I marked the header at the top of the rear crossmember to avoid having the sensor hit the crossmember (thanks zerahvoid).




Because the primaries come slightly rearwards and not straight down, you have to put the bungs a little higher.



I took a bunch of photos - hopefully this will help anyone else considering the mod.







I also had my injectors flow tested and sonic cleaned, and replaced the plugs. The only issue I had after this mod was a very intermittent misfire. I disassembled the O2 extension harnesses and re-soldered all the connections (one sensor had crimp connectors with an intermittent open). Fixed. Runs better than ever!!!

Hope this helps someone,
Jim
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Awesome writeup, thanks for doing a clean job, makes me want to buy a new header and have them do it. I don't own a tig machine but can practice on one starting mid August.
 
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