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Discussion Starter #1
My spyder is a 2002. Had a vacuum leak and the car was running lean. To fix it I dropped the engine to replace the intake manifold gasket. While it was out I changed all vacuum hoses.

The car has 273k miles. It was rebuilt at 162k after it lost the oil rings the first time. I had expected the engine to last about another 50k miles so I didn't tear it down this time while it was out.

After reinstallation of the engine it is heavily smoking. I disconnected and plugged all hoses off the valve cover in case oil was coming through the intake but no change in the smoking. Pulling plugs, plugs on 2 & 3 are wet with oil. It is pushing excess oil from the header/catalytic convert seal.

It seems weird that it would have a sudden oil ring failure to this level. Has anyone had it fail like this?

Assuming I'll have to rebuild it. Can I simply ream the oil holes? Or will I need to buy 03 or newer pistons? I should have done this during the last rebuild.
 

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Did you try resetting the ECU? If you had a vacuum leak, then the ECU has probably adapted with extra fuel, and that could be exacerbating the problem.
 

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If you just plugged the Lines.. does this include the PCV?..

If you don't let the PCV Breath, then the Crank Case will pressurize, causing Blow By..
You can plug all the Vacuum Lines, except to will loose the Vacuum Brake Booster, and the Carbon Canister will fill up with Fuel Vapors and might Start Dripping..

s it possable the Center Cylinders were Wounded when the System was running Lean?.. Do a Compression Test and See.. You can't tell the Health of the Oil Rings that way, but you can see if the Bores are wounded..

Cap
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Did you try resetting the ECU? If you had a vacuum leak, then the ECU has probably adapted with extra fuel, and that could be exacerbating the problem.
Engine was out for about 2 weeks, the battery was disconnected in that time. To my understanding that should reset the computer.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
If you just plugged the Lines.. does this include the PCV?..

If you don't let the PCV Breath, then the Crank Case will pressurize, causing Blow By..
You can plug all the Vacuum Lines, except to will loose the Vacuum Brake Booster, and the Carbon Canister will fill up with Fuel Vapors and might Start Dripping..

s it possable the Center Cylinders were Wounded when the System was running Lean?.. Do a Compression Test and See.. You can't tell the Health of the Oil Rings that way, but you can see if the Bores are wounded..

Cap
When I plugged the lines I pulled them off the valve cover, so both the PCV and the other vent hole that typically runs back to the intake are open to the atmosphere. crank case should be at atmosphere so I wouldn't expect that to be enough pressure to push past oil rings? Lines to the carbon canister are still connected to the vacuum system.

I pulled the plugs several times to look at them. Plugs from 2&3 are wet, I am assuming it is oil since it is pushing excess from the exhaust manifold/catalytic seal.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
it possable the Center Cylinders were Wounded when the System was running Lean?.. Do a Compression Test and See.. You can't tell the Health of the Oil Rings that way, but you can see if the Bores are wounded..
Going to borrow a compression tester from a coworker, and borescope from work. When testing for compression, do you disconnect anything to disable fuel or spark?
 

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Plugs are out, so it wont Fire.. the Coils will be disconected, and the ECU will be pissed about that.. My or My Not Inject Fuel.. You can Pull the Injector leads to prevent Fuel..

Leave all the Plugs Out when testing.. Crank till the Higest Reading then stop.

Cap
 

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Discussion Starter #8
is it possable the Center Cylinders were Wounded when the System was running Lean?.. Do a Compression Test and See.. You can't tell the Health of the Oil Rings that way, but you can see if the Bores are wounded..
rereading your reply. The leak was between the #2&3 cylinder... hmm.... compression test to follow.
 

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Plugs are out, so it wont Fire.. the Coils will be disconected, and the ECU will be pissed about that.. My or My Not Inject Fuel.. You can Pull the Injector leads to prevent Fuel..

Leave all the Plugs Out when testing.. Crank till the Higest Reading then stop.

Cap
Do the compression test with the throttle wide-open and keep the battery fully-charged from start to end (with a charger)
 

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When I plugged the lines I pulled them off the valve cover, so both the PCV and the other vent hole that typically runs back to the intake are open to the atmosphere. crank case should be at atmosphere so I wouldn't expect that to be enough pressure to push past oil rings? Lines to the carbon canister are still connected to the vacuum system.

I pulled the plugs several times to look at them. Plugs from 2&3 are wet, I am assuming it is oil since it is pushing excess from the exhaust manifold/catalytic seal.
You should have left the PCV line attached, or blocked to prevent the PCV from pulling in un-metered air.
 

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My spyder is a 2002. Had a vacuum leak and the car was running lean. To fix it I dropped the engine to replace the intake manifold gasket. While it was out I changed all vacuum hoses.

The car has 273k miles. It was rebuilt at 162k after it lost the oil rings the first time. I had expected the engine to last about another 50k miles so I didn't tear it down this time while it was out.

After reinstallation of the engine it is heavily smoking. I disconnected and plugged all hoses off the valve cover in case oil was coming through the intake but no change in the smoking. Pulling plugs, plugs on 2 & 3 are wet with oil. It is pushing excess oil from the header/catalytic convert seal.

It seems weird that it would have a sudden oil ring failure to this level. Has anyone had it fail like this?

Assuming I'll have to rebuild it. Can I simply ream the oil holes? Or will I need to buy 03 or newer pistons? I should have done this during the last rebuild.
If when the engine was out, you let it lie on its side, the oil from the sump can seep into the cylinders through the ring gaps. Did you keep the engine upright?

Dave
 

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Do the compression test with the throttle wide-open and keep the battery fully-charged from start to end (with a charger)
If you pull all the Plugs Out, you do not need to Hold the Throttle Body Open.. it will breath back through the Open Spark Plugs during the Intake Stroke keeping the Manifold Pressure At Atmospheric..
Agree on the Battery Charger if the Battery is Suspect
Cap
 

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If you pull all the Plugs Out, you do not need to Hold the Throttle Body Open.. it will breath back through the Open Spark Plugs during the Intake Stroke keeping the Manifold Pressure At Atmospheric..
Agree on the Battery Charger if the Battery is Suspect
Cap
I hadn't thought of that, though I would expect it to be somewhat throttled due the limited amount of overlap between any 2 cylinders and any cylinder with an open intake valve will have the piston descending and the spark plug hole yields some flow restriction. Have you compared measurements with all spark plugs out with and without the throttle open?
 

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Discussion Starter #14
If when the engine was out, you let it lie on its side, the oil from the sump can seep into the cylinders through the ring gaps. Did you keep the engine upright?

Dave
The engine stayed mostly upright, maybe leaning back 10 degrees towards the exhaust manifold. I guess its possible, but I've parked on steeper slopes. I probably have 20 minutes or so of run time, I'd expect to see the engine clear itself by then.

Extended running the engine will load up and you have to rev the engine to give some gas to clear it.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I hadn't thought of that, though I would expect it to be somewhat throttled due the limited amount of overlap between any 2 cylinders and any cylinder with an open intake valve will have the piston descending and the spark plug hole yields some flow restriction. Have you compared measurements with all spark plugs out with and without the throttle open?
I'll pull the plugs and keep the Throttle wide open! air for everyone!

On a more serious note, the battery is strong, but I'll keep it plugged into my charger, no need to stress it out too much.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Quick update. Pulled the engine. Took off the head to inspect things before ordering parts. I figured whatever was going wrong should be cured by a rebuild.

The intake manifold is dry of oil. The exhaust coated in it. When I rotate the crank the film of oil develops legs on the cylinder walls like a full bodied glass of wine. I ran out of time last night to get the pistons out, but I am planning on doing a ring job.

The cylinder walls look decent, most of the factory honing marks are still visible. Is this normal for a 273k mile engine? There are some spots shinnier than others on the walls where the cylinder walls touch. I would surmise heat distortion in these areas?

Putting it back together I would like to update the pistons. Can I simply ream the oil holes or do I need to replace the pistons. I'd love to save the time/money of swapping pistons if possible. Guess I should have updated the pistons at the 162k mile rebuild.

Timing chain. With the miles it has on it, should I replace it?

thx all!
 

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You can Drill the Holes Bigger.. From Memory ( Bad! ) you only have two Holes grouped together on each side of the Piston.. Four Works and Space them out.. Generally Keep the Holes in the Same Place on all Four Pistons, and Generally do not Break through the Upper Part if the Ring Land.. Keep the Holes in the Middle of the grouve.. The Problem is the oil that gets behind the Ring, gets stuck in the Grouve, and Gets HOT and Cooks.. you are trying to make a 'Path' so the Oil does not stay back there to long, and gets flushed out..

At 270K Miles, your Mains and Rods need Changing.. Your Piston is Too Small, considering changing them for '03 Pistons insted.. I did a Plastigauge Bearing Clearance Check on the New Bearings on mine.. and I Used the Thickest Toyota Bearings and Still had to Shim them with Aluminum Foil to get the Clearance Right.. NEVER get them on the Small Side if the Clearance on an old Journal.. It's NOT Round, and will Fail.. Keep to the Larger end of the Clearance Speck..

Using Toyota Rings you do not Hone the Bores.. At least that what is reported here.. I have the Green Book.. I DOn't remember what is Says.. I did not hone Mine.

the Rings will be from a '05.. '03 they changed the piston Design, and again in '05 they changed the Ring Somewhat.. I do not know what that was..

The Mains also need Changing.. Plastigauge them as well..

Change the Chain and the Rubbibng Blocks.. The Chain 'Stretches' ( Not really, but that is Commonally what it's called ) and the Rubbing Blocks Wearout.. Change the Chain Tensioner..

While your there change the Water Pump..

Cap
 

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Discussion Starter #18
You can Drill the Holes Bigger.. From Memory ( Bad! ) you only have two Holes grouped together on each side of the Piston.. Four Works and Space them out.. Generally Keep the Holes in the Same Place on all Four Pistons, and Generally do not Break through the Upper Part if the Ring Land.. Keep the Holes in the Middle of the grouve.. The Problem is the oil that gets behind the Ring, gets stuck in the Grouve, and Gets HOT and Cooks.. you are trying to make a 'Path' so the Oil does not stay back there to long, and gets flushed out..

At 270K Miles, your Mains and Rods need Changing.. Your Piston is Too Small, considering changing them for '03 Pistons insted.. I did a Plastigauge Bearing Clearance Check on the New Bearings on mine.. and I Used the Thickest Toyota Bearings and Still had to Shim them with Aluminum Foil to get the Clearance Right.. NEVER get them on the Small Side if the Clearance on an old Journal.. It's NOT Round, and will Fail.. Keep to the Larger end of the Clearance Speck..

Using Toyota Rings you do not Hone the Bores.. At least that what is reported here.. I have the Green Book.. I DOn't remember what is Says.. I did not hone Mine.

the Rings will be from a '05.. '03 they changed the piston Design, and again in '05 they changed the Ring Somewhat.. I do not know what that was..

The Mains also need Changing.. Plastigauge them as well..

Change the Chain and the Rubbibng Blocks.. The Chain 'Stretches' ( Not really, but that is Commonally what it's called ) and the Rubbing Blocks Wearout.. Change the Chain Tensioner..

While your there change the Water Pump..

Cap

Thanks for the input, is the green book the factory service manual? I have an electronic version from a decade ago. My rod bearings are undersized. I do not remember the amount ground off the shaft at 162k (spun #4 conrod bearing) I didn't hone at 162k as the walls didn't have perceivable wear.

What do you mean by the piston is too small? In 03 was the piston diameter increased to make a tighter clearance with the piston wall? I suppose that would help take wobble out and help ring seating.

Has anyone had a water pump fail? I know its a pita to get to, but I had to pull mine at the last rebuild after forgetting to replace the o-ring (clue shower of coolant when I first turned it over)



When plastiguaging the bearings do you judge them against the recommended clearance numbers in the factory service manual?
 

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Your Pistons will wear smaller as the miles increase.. if you measure the clearance between the pistons and the Bores, you will find the Pistons are smaller than when new..

03 pistons have the new holes drilled.. so if you just toss in 03 Pistons, the holes are in the Proper Place, and you have new Piston Diameters..
I use Plastigauge the check the Bearing Clearance.. I think the Speck is .0008 to .0018?.. check the book..

Cap
 

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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
Your Pistons will wear smaller as the miles increase.. if you measure the clearance between the pistons and the Bores, you will find the Pistons are smaller than when new..

03 pistons have the new holes drilled.. so if you just toss in 03 Pistons, the holes are in the Proper Place, and you have new Piston Diameters..
I use Plastigauge the check the Bearing Clearance.. I think the Speck is .0008 to .0018?.. check the book..

Cap
very bold of you to assume I track the size of my pistons. ;) I was working up the parts list last night. added all the things you suggested, cause I don't have a good arguement not to, and if I do it right, there's a possibility of getting another 10 years out of the engine.

speaking of bearings, you didn't mention the camshafts, are they ever an area of concern? i guess not much can be done if the surfaces open up
 
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