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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
*update* this project is actually moving forward and I’m posting a summary up here for the people that just want a quick look, the original first post is below.

This project has ended up being a bit bigger than originally envisioned, the transmission has to be swapped at the same time, for details you can dig through the rest of this thread or you can feel free to just ask a question here or via e-mail ([email protected]) Parts will be available on FrankensteinMotorworks.com as they become available.

Also, as with my other parts I sell, there’s no need to buy parts to get some questions answered. If you plan on making some or most of the parts yourself you can still feel free to ask me questions, as long as you aren’t asking for dimensional information to make the parts yourself I’ll do my best to answer the questions.

And finally, before I get into the details please note that the 6 speed transmission mounting stuff will be available separately but is not intended to be used with the stock engine. They will bolt together but the transmission is not located at the same spot as stock. The transmission stuff is available separately to enable other swaps in the future like the 8AR-FE and others.

So, without further delay, here’s the list of all the parts I’m making for this swap and their current status. I’ll do my best to keep this up to date over time but it’s possible that this is a few days behind. The prices on parts that are already for sale will not be changing, the prices on parts that are done is very unlikely to change but something may happen during production to trigger a change. The prices marked projected are just best guess estimates and may change up or down.

2AR-FE Engine bits:
-Right side motor mount $140 (done, for sale) see listing here: https://frankensteinmotorworks.squarespace.com/mr2-spyder-shop/2ar-fe-right-side-motor-mount

-Thermostat conversion housing $148 (Done, for sale) See listing here: http://frankensteinmotorworks.squarespace.com/mr2-spyder-shop/2ar-fe-conversion-thermostat-housing

-Tuned ECU: $370 + $50 core (haven’t started but I have enough experience with the 2GR to know the price is good) At first an ECU will be available that will require an immobilizer but I expect to remove the immobilizer at some point in the near future. Instructions to program the immobilizer ECU to the engine ECU will be provided. I expect this ECU to have no fault codes when running in this swapped application, the VVT-I will also be tweaked to be more appropriate for a RWD application and the redline will be raised a bit. Exact RPM will depend on testing but it’ll likely be about 7000RPM.

-Idler bracket for No A/C installation $87 (done, for sale) See Listing here: https://frankensteinmotorworks.squarespace.com/mr2-spyder-shop/2ar-fe-ac-delete-idler

6 speed transmission swap bits:
-Transmission mounts $385 (Done, for sale) see listing here: https://frankensteinmotorworks.squarespace.com/mr2-spyder-shop/eb6x-transmission-mount-kit

-Axle shafts $220 (done) the $220 won’t actually be spent in my store I’m just going to be providing instructions on how to assemble your own axles. The preliminary excerpt from the document that explains how to is here: http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/MKIII/2ARSwap/documentation/Toyota 2AR Instalation guide for MKIII Spyder (axle excerpt).pdf

-Shift Linkage kit $430 (Done, for sale) see listing here: http://frankensteinmotorworks.squarespace.com/mr2-spyder-shop/eb6x-transmission-shift-linkage-kit

Exhaust:
-Header $425 (projected price, design done organizing production run), this is a 4-2-1 header using an equal length design that fits well within the constraints of the motor. You can see the plastic prototype here:


-Intermediate pipe $300 (very preliminary pricing, part is not designed yet) I expect this part to connect the above header to the stock tail section and have at least one straight section where a catalytic converter could be added relatively easily if needed for your locale.

Air conditioning:
A/C bracket $120 (very preliminary projected pricing) note that this replaces the $84 idler above so do not add both prices when projecting a cost. This bracket will mount the Nissan juke reduced diameter A/C compressor to the 2AR in a way that leaves clearance for the MKIII MR2 chassis. This part is not designed out yet.

Drive by wire:
Firewall adapter: $58 (done, for sale) see listing here: http://frankensteinmotorworks.squarespace.com/mr2-spyder-shop/dbw-pedal-adapter Note that this assumes there is carpet in the vehicle and a stop will have to be added to prevent over-travel in cars without carpet. Dimensions for the stop will be documented.

Extras:
Installation manual $Free. Unlike my 2GR-FE MKII parts, there will be a properly documented installation manual for this swap. I will be doing this swap in another chassis designed for street use, not race car use to finish out this manual and properly document everything.

Wiring pigtails: This is another shortcoming learned from the 2GR stuff. Pigtails are available for cheap at the u-pull-it yard but many people are unable or unwilling to go get those parts. I will do my best to make an ECU body side pigtail available as well as a DBW pedal pigtail.

My goal has been to make all the parts available for under $2500 and right now a swap without A/C is projected at $2093 and $2129 if you want A/C. keep in mind this does not include the $220 you’ll also need to spend on axles.

* end of update *



Hi guys, I don't show my face here very often so for those that don't know me, i'm the guy that makes and sells 2GR-FE swap kits for MKII MR2s and I'm starting to look ahead a few projects. I'm thinking i want to start supporting the MKIII MR2 market.

In my opinion the 2GR is a bit big for the MKIII, but now that i have the Toyota ECUs hacked it really opens up possibilities. Particularly the 2AR-FE is pretty interesting. it would fit nicely in the engine bay, not change the stock weight add about 40% more power over stock and also open up the options for beefy turbo builds.

So, is there interest?

On a side note, i'm looking for a mule to start developing on in about 3-6 months. I'm in Indianapolis so if anyone has or knows of a reasonably clean MKIII for cheap. I don't care if the motor is blown but i do want to buy a complete car that hasn't had any modifications.

Feel free to post the reply here or contact me directly: [email protected]

Thanks!
 

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Sounds great, but I am curious if that would be designed for a C series or an E series box? Even stock a 2AR FE would make for a heck of a spyder. Like a 2zz but with torque!
 

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Sounds great, but I am curious if that would be designed for a C series or an E series box? Even stock a 2AR FE would make for a heck of a spyder. Like a 2zz but with torque!
the torque alone makes a better engine than the 2zz.

love the high revving 2zz sure, but really annoying when off cam.
 

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I don't see why anyone would do this swap over the k24 tbh. The kseries is a better option in nearly all aspects, even down to price (according to my 3 min google search). Plus slowpok3 even figured out how to make the evap system function with hondata. It's a full emission compliant swap for many states. I feel this would be a niche market for you, but I could be wrong. Hopefully some of the toyota purists come out of the woodworks to prove otherwise.

Good luck, I'm curious to see the fitment and options this swap would bring.
 

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I don't see why anyone would do this swap over the k24 tbh. The kseries is a better option in nearly all aspects, even down to price (according to my 3 min google search). Plus slowpok3 even figured out how to make the evap system function with hondata. It's a full emission compliant swap for many states. I feel this would be a niche market for you, but I could be wrong. Hopefully some of the toyota purists come out of the woodworks to prove otherwise.

Good luck, I'm curious to see the fitment and options this swap would bring.
It isn't emissions compliant unless you can use a stock honda ecu.

Hondata is not road legal.
 

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It isn't emissions compliant unless you can use a stock honda ecu.

Hondata is not road legal.
California is not the entire U.S., every state's health department gets to choose whether or not to allow them. In my state, UT (and others), we are allowed to run hondata as long as all emission regulating sensors are in working order. I was already flagged and had to jump through the hoops, federally legal cat, pcv, downstream o2, etc.
 

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California is not the entire U.S., every state's health department gets to choose whether or not to allow them. In my state, UT (and others), we are allowed to run hondata as long as all emission regulating sensors are in working order. I was already flagged and had to jump through the hoops, federally legal cat, pcv, downstream o2, etc.
Yea well, before you say California isn't the entire US, how many states do allow it? I would reckon not many. We don't have to pass safety inspections in California, while people in a bunch of states do, like Massachusetts. I would imagine they would not be happy with a Hondata there either.

That said, I agree a 2AR is not a great swap. It's a very sophisticated engine, but not quite meant for producing lots of power. I know turbo Scion tCs were somewhat popular, and the 2AR is a bit better than the 2AZ, but it is still geared much more for economy. The stroke at 98mm is very very long so revving it higher is probably a bad idea, and it would be enormously expensive to shorten the intake runners, which even the shorter path with the ACIS valve open looks kind of long-ish. The TGVs look a little better designed than Subaru ones in terms of flow restriction just eyeballing it, but that may not be the case.

Okay for strapping a turbo on, but with a turbo you get more torque anyways, and might as well use a 1ZZ or 2ZZ?
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Wow, this is a much better response than i expected. I'm happy to see this forum is pretty active. I'm also happy to see positive and negative comments without being rude about it. Thanks everyone.

what transmission would you use?
My current thought is to use the EB6x, the stock C series is made of glass and the E series has shit for synchros. I've used both the EB60 and the E153 (1998 spec) to do some racing, the E153 needs new synchros every 500miles or so, the EB60 made it about 6500 miles before needing new synchros. the EB is just a *MUCH* better box when it comes to every specification except ultimate torque maximum. Plus, the gearing on it dosen't require swapping parts to make it useful with a torqey motor.

Sounds great, but I am curious if that would be designed for a C series or an E series box? Even stock a 2AR FE would make for a heck of a spyder. Like a 2zz but with torque!
I agree it would make a heck of a car, in our MKI race car it made about 180HP to the ground with an uncorked header and intake. with cams, springs and a modified ECU to reach 8000RPM we should be able to get this to about 220RWHP. giving it a better power to weight than the MKII with the 2GR. the turbo thing is not a route i expect most people to take, it's just an "if you want more"

I remember seeing the nice quality swap kits you produce for the Mk2 market!
Thanks, i appreciate the compliment. I want to generate a quality kit. it won't necesairly be the cheapest, but it'll work right every time and be pretty at the same time. i actually have a web-site that shows the stuff now, but i'm betting i'm not allowed to mention it here. I'll read up the rules before i go posting a link.

the torque alone makes a better engine than the 2zz.

love the high revving 2zz sure, but really annoying when off cam.
and that's the beauty of this motor. now that i can modify the ECUs, we can get the high revs of the 2zz and the low end torque. I'll have to experiment with this but the valve train is almost identical to the 2GR so it can likely take the same 7200RPM as the 2GR on the stock valvetrain.

I don't see why anyone would do this swap over the k24 tbh. The kseries is a better option in nearly all aspects, even down to price (according to my 3 min google search). Plus slowpok3 even figured out how to make the evap system function with hondata. It's a full emission compliant swap for many states. I feel this would be a niche market for you, but I could be wrong. Hopefully some of the toyota purists come out of the woodworks to prove otherwise.

Good luck, I'm curious to see the fitment and options this swap would bring.
I wasn't aware there was a good K24 swap kit available. would you mind sharing a link? and you're right that this kit would be more expensive. just the motor alone will be more expensive. I don't know much about the honda motor but a quick search shows it has similar power and torque levels and they generally are pretty well supported by the aftermarket. what transmission does the swap use? are there any links to build threads using this kit?

Overall, the thought is to offer a nice Toyota based kit that can meet emissions and has full vehicle integration. making it look like Toyota put it in there themselves.

It isn't emissions compliant unless you can use a stock honda ecu.

Hondata is not road legal.
As much as i'd like to lean on this and agree with it as an argument against the honda motor, the California market isn't built around these kinds of things. their emission laws have choked up that market to where they don't build these kinds of things. I'd support the market as a side effect, not as my primary purpose. If the MKIII has a similar market to the MKII this isn't a concern at all, most of the US and almost the entire international makret simply does not care.

I'm down for a Gouky K-swap kit.
I'm unlikely to produce a Honda based kit. especially if there's already a kit available in the market. this is a niche market as it is, competing for the market makes it non viable.


California is not the entire U.S., every state's health department gets to choose whether or not to allow them. In my state, UT (and others), we are allowed to run hondata as long as all emission regulating sensors are in working order. I was already flagged and had to jump through the hoops, federally legal cat, pcv, downstream o2, etc.
Exactly, many don't care about emissions and the ones that do only care about what actually comes out the pipe instead of the ridiculous California visual inspection that fails almost everything. that's also generally the case around the world.
 

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Yea well, before you say California isn't the entire US, how many states do allow it? I would reckon not many. We don't have to pass safety inspections in California, while people in a bunch of states do, like Massachusetts. I would imagine they would not be happy with a Hondata there either.

That said, I agree a 2AR is not a great swap. It's a very sophisticated engine, but not quite meant for producing lots of power. I know turbo Scion tCs were somewhat popular, and the 2AR is a bit better than the 2AZ, but it is still geared much more for economy. The stroke at 98mm is very very long so revving it higher is probably a bad idea, and it would be enormously expensive to shorten the intake runners, which even the shorter path with the ACIS valve open looks kind of long-ish. The TGVs look a little better designed than Subaru ones in terms of flow restriction just eyeballing it, but that may not be the case.

Okay for strapping a turbo on, but with a turbo you get more torque anyways, and might as well use a 1ZZ or 2ZZ?
http://www.semasan.com/page.asp?content=emissions&g=semaga 20 states including utah. We would need more people to chime in, but I know that number is even bigger. I feel if people had all the emissions equipment hooked up no one would even bat an eye at the swap (besides the Honda logo's lol)

and that's the beauty of this motor. now that i can modify the ECUs, we can get the high revs of the 2zz and the low end torque. I'll have to experiment with this but the valve train is almost identical to the 2GR so it can likely take the same 7200RPM as the 2GR on the stock valvetrain.
I'm guessing these are flash based ecu's? If so, that would definitely help getting emissions done, and would save $1k right there by itself depending on the hardware/software needed to tune.

Gouky said:
I wasn't aware there was a good K24 swap kit available. would you mind sharing a link? and you're right that this kit would be more expensive. just the motor alone will be more expensive. I don't know much about the honda motor but a quick search shows it has similar power and torque levels and they generally are pretty well supported by the aftermarket. what transmission does the swap use? are there any links to build threads using this kit?
Sorry there is no solid "kit" but it's just the typical k20 swap parts with one factory honda motor mount changed. http://mitchsautoparts.com/Store/ . The k24's are more expensive than the k20's because we need an rsx wiring harness with it's sub harness, crv motormount, IM adaptor plate for the TB, and a few k20 sensors separately.

You can use an rsx transmission, or a newer gen civic transmission with the ktuned shifter http://k-tuned.3dcartstores.com/Race-Spec-Billet-RSX-Shifter_p_313.html

Gouky said:
the thought is to offer a nice Toyota based kit that can meet emissions and has full vehicle integration. making it look like Toyota put it in there themselves.
That's what would make this kit sell. I agree that this swap would be easier to pass emissions with, especially if we are dealing with a stock based ecu. Plus, the added torque alone would make this swap worth it. There is nothing better than some low end torque to pull you around.


Gouky said:
, many don't care about emissions and the ones that do only care about what actually comes out the pipe instead of the ridiculous California visual inspection that fails almost everything. that's also generally the case around the world.
Right? Mine was only flagged because the person doing the emissions saw that it had Honda written on the valve cover, he said it passed the smog test with flying colors (minus the downstream o2 not functioning).
 

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I think this would be a great swap. How much extra weight does it add over the 1zz including the transmission.
 

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If you start to change transmission, axles, mounts, wiring, engine, ecu, then the cost will probably get higher than most people want to spend. At that point you are going to spend $6K-7K for a 2AR engine.

You are going to see as many of these as you do the 2gr in the spyder. Maybe 1 or 2 a year.

The 2zz is popular because it's essential just an engine replacement. Even if it lacks power, it's ease of install is still unmatched.
 

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I think this would be a great swap. How much extra weight does it add over the 1zz including the transmission.
I believe the wet weight of the 2AR is a tad over 300lbs, and the EB60 transmission is a bit beefier than the C60, but not as heavy as the E153 or EA60, so it should be something like 80-100lbs.

Agreed with silversprint, the 2ZZ is just way too easy and cheap, I don't see this catching on. The stock power output is around the same as the 2ZZ, but getting past 200hp is going to be really really expensive and hard.
 

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I believe the wet weight of the 2AR is a tad over 300lbs, and the EB60 transmission is a bit beefier than the C60, but not as heavy as the E153 or EA60, so it should be something like 80-100lbs.

Agreed with silversprint, the 2ZZ is just way too easy and cheap, I don't see this catching on. The stock power output is around the same as the 2ZZ, but getting past 200hp is going to be really really expensive and hard.
So roughly over 50lbs not including transmission. That could be a problem all things considered.
 

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When I found out that my engine was burning oil I started looking at the 2AR-FE. My only concern is that the engine is "backwards" in comparison to the spyder's 1zz. The intake runners and exhaust are on opposite sides and so is the differential on the transmission. The only way to make it work that I see would be to either reverse the layout of the spyder engie bay (exhaust out near the firewall, intake from the rear bumper area) or find a transmission that will mount to the engine backwards and change the axle lengths. otherwise, the engine would be behind the rear axle and then you'd just have a VW beatle :confused:

Then again, I've never done an engine swap or designed one, so I'm definitely curious to read what you have to say on the matter! If I can ever find a 93 MKII with no engine, I'll definitely look at your swap kit for a V6!
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I'm guessing these are flash based ecu's? If so, that would definitely help getting emissions done, and would save $1k right there by itself depending on the hardware/software needed to tune.
Yeah, it's a hacked stock ECU, with all emissions controls optionally still in place.


I think this would be a great swap. How much extra weight does it add over the 1zz including the transmission.
i don't have an exact number, but it'll be about 20-50lbs heavier keeping in mind that exhaust and intake are also generally lighter aftermarket than stock.

When I found out that my engine was burning oil I started looking at the 2AR-FE. My only concern is that the engine is "backwards" in comparison to the spyder's 1zz. The intake runners and exhaust are on opposite sides and so is the differential on the transmission. The only way to make it work that I see would be to either reverse the layout of the spyder engie bay (exhaust out near the firewall, intake from the rear bumper area) or find a transmission that will mount to the engine backwards and change the axle lengths. otherwise, the engine would be behind the rear axle and then you'd just have a VW beatle :confused:

Then again, I've never done an engine swap or designed one, so I'm definitely curious to read what you have to say on the matter! If I can ever find a 93 MKII with no engine, I'll definitely look at your swap kit for a V6!
the intake and exhaust are flipped, but the engine still runs the same way, it really isn't an issue other than having to route the exhaust under the engine

but after looking at the K series options it looks like a few people already have this market covered. I'd like to eventually do something for MKIII MR2s but this likely isn't it. i'll keep thinking about it, but for now back to the MKII supercharger stuff.
 

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I think some of us are still waiting for a complete 2gr kits. Everything in 1 package. You would just have to source the engine and trans. ATS was going to do this but they were run off from this forum.

After killing the 2zz I have to now consider if I want to stay with another 2zz turbo or go 2gr. I think a 2gr is the only reliable way to get 300hp from a stock factory engine. I would like to go 2gr but it's a lot more complicated to just get started with collected all the necessary parts for the swap.
 
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