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Thoughts on a 2AR-FE swap kit for the Spyder?

243K views 1K replies 88 participants last post by  1997aarondavis 
#1 · (Edited)
*update* this project is actually moving forward and I’m posting a summary up here for the people that just want a quick look, the original first post is below.

This project has ended up being a bit bigger than originally envisioned, the transmission has to be swapped at the same time, for details you can dig through the rest of this thread or you can feel free to just ask a question here or via e-mail (Marc@FrankensteinMotorworks.com) Parts will be available on FrankensteinMotorworks.com as they become available.

Also, as with my other parts I sell, there’s no need to buy parts to get some questions answered. If you plan on making some or most of the parts yourself you can still feel free to ask me questions, as long as you aren’t asking for dimensional information to make the parts yourself I’ll do my best to answer the questions.

And finally, before I get into the details please note that the 6 speed transmission mounting stuff will be available separately but is not intended to be used with the stock engine. They will bolt together but the transmission is not located at the same spot as stock. The transmission stuff is available separately to enable other swaps in the future like the 8AR-FE and others.

So, without further delay, here’s the list of all the parts I’m making for this swap and their current status. I’ll do my best to keep this up to date over time but it’s possible that this is a few days behind. The prices on parts that are already for sale will not be changing, the prices on parts that are done is very unlikely to change but something may happen during production to trigger a change. The prices marked projected are just best guess estimates and may change up or down.

2AR-FE Engine bits:
-Right side motor mount $140 (done, for sale) see listing here: https://frankensteinmotorworks.squarespace.com/mr2-spyder-shop/2ar-fe-right-side-motor-mount

-Thermostat conversion housing $148 (Done, for sale) See listing here: http://frankensteinmotorworks.squarespace.com/mr2-spyder-shop/2ar-fe-conversion-thermostat-housing

-Tuned ECU: $370 + $50 core (haven’t started but I have enough experience with the 2GR to know the price is good) At first an ECU will be available that will require an immobilizer but I expect to remove the immobilizer at some point in the near future. Instructions to program the immobilizer ECU to the engine ECU will be provided. I expect this ECU to have no fault codes when running in this swapped application, the VVT-I will also be tweaked to be more appropriate for a RWD application and the redline will be raised a bit. Exact RPM will depend on testing but it’ll likely be about 7000RPM.

-Idler bracket for No A/C installation $87 (done, for sale) See Listing here: https://frankensteinmotorworks.squarespace.com/mr2-spyder-shop/2ar-fe-ac-delete-idler

6 speed transmission swap bits:
-Transmission mounts $385 (Done, for sale) see listing here: https://frankensteinmotorworks.squarespace.com/mr2-spyder-shop/eb6x-transmission-mount-kit

-Axle shafts $220 (done) the $220 won’t actually be spent in my store I’m just going to be providing instructions on how to assemble your own axles. The preliminary excerpt from the document that explains how to is here: http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/M...ion guide for MKIII Spyder (axle excerpt).pdf

-Shift Linkage kit $430 (Done, for sale) see listing here: http://frankensteinmotorworks.squarespace.com/mr2-spyder-shop/eb6x-transmission-shift-linkage-kit

Exhaust:
-Header $425 (projected price, design done organizing production run), this is a 4-2-1 header using an equal length design that fits well within the constraints of the motor. You can see the plastic prototype here:


-Intermediate pipe $300 (very preliminary pricing, part is not designed yet) I expect this part to connect the above header to the stock tail section and have at least one straight section where a catalytic converter could be added relatively easily if needed for your locale.

Air conditioning:
A/C bracket $120 (very preliminary projected pricing) note that this replaces the $84 idler above so do not add both prices when projecting a cost. This bracket will mount the Nissan juke reduced diameter A/C compressor to the 2AR in a way that leaves clearance for the MKIII MR2 chassis. This part is not designed out yet.

Drive by wire:
Firewall adapter: $58 (done, for sale) see listing here: http://frankensteinmotorworks.squarespace.com/mr2-spyder-shop/dbw-pedal-adapter Note that this assumes there is carpet in the vehicle and a stop will have to be added to prevent over-travel in cars without carpet. Dimensions for the stop will be documented.

Extras:
Installation manual $Free. Unlike my 2GR-FE MKII parts, there will be a properly documented installation manual for this swap. I will be doing this swap in another chassis designed for street use, not race car use to finish out this manual and properly document everything.

Wiring pigtails: This is another shortcoming learned from the 2GR stuff. Pigtails are available for cheap at the u-pull-it yard but many people are unable or unwilling to go get those parts. I will do my best to make an ECU body side pigtail available as well as a DBW pedal pigtail.

My goal has been to make all the parts available for under $2500 and right now a swap without A/C is projected at $2093 and $2129 if you want A/C. keep in mind this does not include the $220 you’ll also need to spend on axles.

* end of update *



Hi guys, I don't show my face here very often so for those that don't know me, i'm the guy that makes and sells 2GR-FE swap kits for MKII MR2s and I'm starting to look ahead a few projects. I'm thinking i want to start supporting the MKIII MR2 market.

In my opinion the 2GR is a bit big for the MKIII, but now that i have the Toyota ECUs hacked it really opens up possibilities. Particularly the 2AR-FE is pretty interesting. it would fit nicely in the engine bay, not change the stock weight add about 40% more power over stock and also open up the options for beefy turbo builds.

So, is there interest?

On a side note, i'm looking for a mule to start developing on in about 3-6 months. I'm in Indianapolis so if anyone has or knows of a reasonably clean MKIII for cheap. I don't care if the motor is blown but i do want to buy a complete car that hasn't had any modifications.

Feel free to post the reply here or contact me directly: Marc@frankensteinmotorworks.com

Thanks!
 
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#12 ·
Wow, this is a much better response than i expected. I'm happy to see this forum is pretty active. I'm also happy to see positive and negative comments without being rude about it. Thanks everyone.



My current thought is to use the EB6x, the stock C series is made of glass and the E series has shit for synchros. I've used both the EB60 and the E153 (1998 spec) to do some racing, the E153 needs new synchros every 500miles or so, the EB60 made it about 6500 miles before needing new synchros. the EB is just a *MUCH* better box when it comes to every specification except ultimate torque maximum. Plus, the gearing on it dosen't require swapping parts to make it useful with a torqey motor.

Sounds great, but I am curious if that would be designed for a C series or an E series box? Even stock a 2AR FE would make for a heck of a spyder. Like a 2zz but with torque!
I agree it would make a heck of a car, in our MKI race car it made about 180HP to the ground with an uncorked header and intake. with cams, springs and a modified ECU to reach 8000RPM we should be able to get this to about 220RWHP. giving it a better power to weight than the MKII with the 2GR. the turbo thing is not a route i expect most people to take, it's just an "if you want more"

I remember seeing the nice quality swap kits you produce for the Mk2 market!
Thanks, i appreciate the compliment. I want to generate a quality kit. it won't necesairly be the cheapest, but it'll work right every time and be pretty at the same time. i actually have a web-site that shows the stuff now, but i'm betting i'm not allowed to mention it here. I'll read up the rules before i go posting a link.

the torque alone makes a better engine than the 2zz.

love the high revving 2zz sure, but really annoying when off cam.
and that's the beauty of this motor. now that i can modify the ECUs, we can get the high revs of the 2zz and the low end torque. I'll have to experiment with this but the valve train is almost identical to the 2GR so it can likely take the same 7200RPM as the 2GR on the stock valvetrain.

I don't see why anyone would do this swap over the k24 tbh. The kseries is a better option in nearly all aspects, even down to price (according to my 3 min google search). Plus slowpok3 even figured out how to make the evap system function with hondata. It's a full emission compliant swap for many states. I feel this would be a niche market for you, but I could be wrong. Hopefully some of the toyota purists come out of the woodworks to prove otherwise.

Good luck, I'm curious to see the fitment and options this swap would bring.
I wasn't aware there was a good K24 swap kit available. would you mind sharing a link? and you're right that this kit would be more expensive. just the motor alone will be more expensive. I don't know much about the honda motor but a quick search shows it has similar power and torque levels and they generally are pretty well supported by the aftermarket. what transmission does the swap use? are there any links to build threads using this kit?

Overall, the thought is to offer a nice Toyota based kit that can meet emissions and has full vehicle integration. making it look like Toyota put it in there themselves.

It isn't emissions compliant unless you can use a stock honda ecu.

Hondata is not road legal.
As much as i'd like to lean on this and agree with it as an argument against the honda motor, the California market isn't built around these kinds of things. their emission laws have choked up that market to where they don't build these kinds of things. I'd support the market as a side effect, not as my primary purpose. If the MKIII has a similar market to the MKII this isn't a concern at all, most of the US and almost the entire international makret simply does not care.

I'm down for a Gouky K-swap kit.
I'm unlikely to produce a Honda based kit. especially if there's already a kit available in the market. this is a niche market as it is, competing for the market makes it non viable.


California is not the entire U.S., every state's health department gets to choose whether or not to allow them. In my state, UT (and others), we are allowed to run hondata as long as all emission regulating sensors are in working order. I was already flagged and had to jump through the hoops, federally legal cat, pcv, downstream o2, etc.
Exactly, many don't care about emissions and the ones that do only care about what actually comes out the pipe instead of the ridiculous California visual inspection that fails almost everything. that's also generally the case around the world.
 
#7 ·
I don't see why anyone would do this swap over the k24 tbh. The kseries is a better option in nearly all aspects, even down to price (according to my 3 min google search). Plus slowpok3 even figured out how to make the evap system function with hondata. It's a full emission compliant swap for many states. I feel this would be a niche market for you, but I could be wrong. Hopefully some of the toyota purists come out of the woodworks to prove otherwise.

Good luck, I'm curious to see the fitment and options this swap would bring.
 
#16 ·
I believe the wet weight of the 2AR is a tad over 300lbs, and the EB60 transmission is a bit beefier than the C60, but not as heavy as the E153 or EA60, so it should be something like 80-100lbs.

Agreed with silversprint, the 2ZZ is just way too easy and cheap, I don't see this catching on. The stock power output is around the same as the 2ZZ, but getting past 200hp is going to be really really expensive and hard.
 
#15 ·
If you start to change transmission, axles, mounts, wiring, engine, ecu, then the cost will probably get higher than most people want to spend. At that point you are going to spend $6K-7K for a 2AR engine.

You are going to see as many of these as you do the 2gr in the spyder. Maybe 1 or 2 a year.

The 2zz is popular because it's essential just an engine replacement. Even if it lacks power, it's ease of install is still unmatched.
 
#18 ·
When I found out that my engine was burning oil I started looking at the 2AR-FE. My only concern is that the engine is "backwards" in comparison to the spyder's 1zz. The intake runners and exhaust are on opposite sides and so is the differential on the transmission. The only way to make it work that I see would be to either reverse the layout of the spyder engie bay (exhaust out near the firewall, intake from the rear bumper area) or find a transmission that will mount to the engine backwards and change the axle lengths. otherwise, the engine would be behind the rear axle and then you'd just have a VW beatle :confused:

Then again, I've never done an engine swap or designed one, so I'm definitely curious to read what you have to say on the matter! If I can ever find a 93 MKII with no engine, I'll definitely look at your swap kit for a V6!
 
#20 ·
I think some of us are still waiting for a complete 2gr kits. Everything in 1 package. You would just have to source the engine and trans. ATS was going to do this but they were run off from this forum.

After killing the 2zz I have to now consider if I want to stay with another 2zz turbo or go 2gr. I think a 2gr is the only reliable way to get 300hp from a stock factory engine. I would like to go 2gr but it's a lot more complicated to just get started with collected all the necessary parts for the swap.
 
#21 ·
I personally won't be making a 2GR kit for the spyder. there's just way too much cutting needed on the body to get it to fit right with more than 3" of ground clearance and from everything i've seen so far making a kit that requires body work is a great way to kill sales.
 
#22 ·
If it was a good swap kit, I think a 2AR swap would be a good way to upgrade. The 2GR swap just isn't practical, with all the cutting and fab work and K swaps are limited by emissions, so I think a 2AR swap would be a good way to keep this chassis alive into the future.
 
#26 ·
I think a 2AR-FE kit supported by Gouky would be awesome! The parts he has designed for the MKII 2GR are amazing, and the headers are practically works of art. If Doug at wiregap were to provide support with the harnesses, this would be almost as plug n play as a 2zz. The A/C issues with the K series would keep me from ever going that route. Although, there is no doubt in my mind that a properly done K motor is a total beast.
 
#27 ·
Not trying to be nosy, but where in Indy are you located? I'm in the 86th&Ditch Rd area. It's cool you're doing something, the ECU stuff, that's been considered impossible.
 
#40 ·
It sounds like a good idea to have the 2ar and eb trans. Is that the combo in the scion tc?
Yeah, it's the same setup as the TC as well as the 2010/2011 camry


Is it possible that the stuff you're doing with the new ECUs can be used to flash the 1ZZ/2ZZ ECUs? IMO a big roadblock to tuning the 1ZZ is the fact that the price of entry is a 1200 PFC + datalogit setup.
It absolutely is possible, but the investment in time is huge on something like this and i don't have any interest in adding this to my line of products.


on a related note, i've come up with an agreement to purchase a test mule, we're working out the shipping details right now.
 
#35 ·
Pretty sure you're the laugh here.

Tuning the 1ZZ opens up the capability to FI the car without a custom ECU, retaining OBD II, not spending hundreds or thousands on limited piggybacks or good standalones, or just avoid the MAF mod's "trickery" (brilliant but not perfect) and just advance timing and optimize fueling on stock injectors with no spacer and proper MAF readings. It will make people's lives much easier. Having a stock tuned ECU beats having a PowerFC or piggyback.
 
#46 ·
Did you just ignore a fact about California smog coming from a Californian who has done smog without tailpipe emissions? I smogged my car mere months ago. They plugged it in, looked it over, and gave me the paperwork that it passed. No dyno run, no sniffer.

Please, if you're going to try to make a point, make sure it's not factually wrong.

If you still don't trust me, here's a link with info. http://www.smogtips.com/new-smog-law-ab-2289.cfm

If you don't trust that site, here's the government site. https://www.bar.ca.gov/Consumer/New_Smog_Check_Test.html

If you don't trust that, ask the Illuminati.
 
#56 ·
If you're really the first person who can flash a Toyota ecu, you should focus your time on tuning 2GRs, since they can be found in a bunch of performance applications. You could get a lot of business through the 2GR swap and Lotus Evora crowd, and probably from Tacoma's too (why get the TRD supercharger when you can do an exhaust and tune).

In stock form Toyotas are pretty well tuned but a modified exhaust makes the stock VVTi settings not work so well in the midrange.

I guess the Scion tC crowd would be interested in the 2AR tune but I can't see the effort to research a Spyder swap being worth it.

Sent from my Redmi 3 using Tapatalk
 
#59 ·
I'm not the only one. there are others out there doing this, the difference is i'm focusing on the MR2 swap crowd. I admit i purchased the checksum algorithm from some underground russian hackers.


as for performance room on the stock tune, nobody is pushing the intake and exhaust changes much more than the MR2 crowd since we package these engines completely differently. To the point where we get about 50-70HP over stock and the stock ECU does great. I've also tuned one of these ECUs completely from scratch with an AEM Infinity-6 and did not get more power from it other than the little bit available for running on the rich end of the power band (12.5:1) instead of a more economical tune.

the only power gains to be had are right at the top, the stock tune rolls off the cams a bit and there's 5-10HP there. there's also a bunch of torque available below 4k on the FWD tunes that can be found on the AWD tunes. probably to avoid torque steer at the bottom.
 
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