MR2 SpyderChat banner

1181 - 1200 of 1224 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
752 Posts
Discussion Starter #1,181
Asking about those valves i took a couple pictures. Looks like no carbon buildup at all on the intake side which isn't entirely unexpected, this motor has no external EGR. I don't have a PCV catch can, it goes right to the intact tract like stock but apparently it isn't losing much oil through that port.





And on the exhaust side there's not much soot accumulation and everything on the valve gets turned to ask from the heat:


None of this is surprising though, the harder you run a motor the cleaner you'll keep the valves as long as you don't melt or erode them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
752 Posts
Discussion Starter #1,182
If the cams don't get you there, I have a hunch deleting the intake manifold valve thingy will get you to 240. That's more than respectable, I wouldn't even bother with a stroker haha.
The variable length runner setup probably won't help to delete with the way they made it in this motor. but i do have an extra intake with a busted brake booster port that would be perfect to sacrifice to that test if it comes down to it. I've also got a parts drawing for an ITB setup if needed.

Also, i'm 90% sure the stock rods are forged. that looks like a forging shear line, not a casting parting line:


But there are aftermarket forged rods available for $440 for a set and forged JE pistons in 9:1 and 11:1 CR for about $600.

The 1AR-FE uses the same connecting rods as the 2AR-FE so even if you want to go stroker you should be able to keep it cheap, just ask JE to make a set of those with the pin 3.5mm higher and you're good to go.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
752 Posts
Discussion Starter #1,183 (Edited)
For a more street-oriented build, you could use ~270 intake/260 exhaust with modified intake manifold and it would still run fine, with the extra displacement making up for the drop in torque.
I'm trying the 282's right up front because i think i can keep the smooth streetability since i can tune the VVT-I. but you might be right, i might need to back off a bit. nobody else has played with this engine (and published it) so i have to find out what it likes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
752 Posts
Discussion Starter #1,184
Finished disassembling the motor, the only bearing that has any wear on it at all is the thrust bearing that fights the clutch release pressure. i would not want to put any more miles on this thing:


Given what i'm seeing there and the fact that i'm about to go to 8000RPM I will plan on running a max of 250 race hours before the next rebuild. that's likely a bit too conservative but i don't want to risk it too much.

The other spot where there was wear is the sides of the bore. Oddly the #4 bore has more wear than the others. I wonder if it's getting more air and making more power than the others which is causing more force against the side of the bores. Note that these aren't scratches in the bore, this is the piston skirt coating material getting deposited in the crosshatch.

Here's the power stroke side of the #4 cylinder:

and the #1 cylinder (#2&3 look identical to this also)


and for fun, here's all the oil jets:


I thought every cylinder had three jets but apparently only the middle ones do and the outside ones have two jets. I'm sure there's a deep technical reason for it.

nothing special to show here but thought you guys would want to see it:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
752 Posts
Discussion Starter #1,186
As a youth, I was told that bore wear was due to too much fuel which leached the oil film.
That's a solid point actually. This isn't so much wear as it is the skirt coating getting deposited on the walls but that probably makes more sense. Maybe #4 gets less air so it's running a bit richer which is causing this.

The right answer is to put four EGT probes in the exhaust and figure out what the cylinder imbalance is. I might get around to that at some point.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
752 Posts
Discussion Starter #1,188
Thinking some more about it, it may have been when the tune was stock, it ran almost 6 of those 9.5 years with the stock tune. The stock tune used to go down to about 10:1 afr when you go beyond the stock power range. i think the stock ECU expects that the only way you're getting there is with a turbo and they are trying to be as safe as possible. Fixing that and the very conservative timing in that region is why the tune i make helps the power so much.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
336 Posts
My k20 might have taken a poop today.(knocking low idle and overall running like S#it How much $ for everything you have available that are "necessary" for the swap ATM? I might be going the 2ar/eb60 route after all :) I loaded up a cart at your site. It reads $2737. Any discount for trolls? Is the wiring sorted out? A/C possible? And what about your BEAN interface?
When i was troubleshooting no start with my swap I went ahead and installed a new pump and filter. I remembered having a hard time pushing the pump into the filter housing.Long story short the oring which seals to the filter was broken. The new pump and filter arrives @ advance on the 26th. Installed a used pump car is fine. False alarm.:)
Have been so happy reading about this swap over time however a bit horrified as well as
just these posts alone above represent decades worth of research material for psychologists.

There is something beyond help when such a sicko even trolls your shopping cart as well.
Very sad this entropy filled degenerate stalks so many online altruists and pioneering threads,
here clearly at the opposite scales of Gouky`s brilliant efforts.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
336 Posts
I went looking for videos and apparently i did not remember 100% properly. it looks like they run to 9000, not 9500RPM.

This video shows exactly how much goes into a 2AR to spin it to 9000RPM and make 1007hp:
Gouky just looking at that video I couldnt help but notice at 1.30 if the water pump is really that hefty prob cools the oil as well. Electric would save a ton of weight as would an external
oil cooler etc. Sure this boosted AR goes to 9k but could really live a very happy life at 8000rpm
with sorted wet sump and maybe for peace of mind some lighter valves and slightly ported head. Im also wonder how much better this engine could run in NA tune
with direct long ITBs at the higher rpm range like some racing engines do.
Lastly the rocker cover seems very simple with low material content would a plastic one
(if available) reduce weight substantially or only a few ounces?
Im more interested in NA tune and getting the weight down as light as possible
which is prob of not much interest to others so excuse my queries.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
752 Posts
Discussion Starter #1,191
I don't think the one in that video has the oil cooler option on it but it isn't shown from quite the right angle to tell for sure. But part of the size is because the oil does go through it and there is an option with an oil to water heat exchanger. It's a really slick option with very few potential failure modes because there are no hoses. it's all cast into the aluminum part and sealed with o-rings.

I just went out to the shop and weighed the extra water pump i have here. it had a tensioner on it and weighed 7.7lbs so the water pump and casting is probably about 6lbs of that. I don't think there's much of a weight savings available with an electric water pump. But that said, if you needed a bunch of space in front of the engine, you could probably move the alternator to the rear of the engine as long as you had a custom intake manifold and then you would have nothing in the way up front for whatever turbo setup you wanted to make.

As for how this engine will do in NA mode when pushed further, i'm about to find out :) i've got a motor all in parts and I've started ordering parts. I'm aiming for an 8500rpm redline or so and cams that will breathe up there. My initial set of reground cams is likely to be a bit hollow at the bottom end because i think they are a bit too long on the duration but i want to see what it can do at the top first and then i'll probably get something else reground once i have that data point. I've been accumulating cheap camshaft cores as they come up on e-bay for cheap. :) So far i've ordered a 2.7L crank, connecting rods and i already have those reground cams.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,534 Posts
The obvious draw of an electric water pump isn't weight savings, it's power. You would probably get 3hp at 8500rpm I'm guessing.

As far as the oil cooler goes, IIRC people liked using the RAV4 AR oil coolers on FR-S/BRZs, but it is a bit small and oil temps were about halfway between no oil cooler and a typical external oil cooler. IIRC the Dynamic Force engine papers bragged about having the coolant passages in the block itself also help cool the oil more, and I imagine the 2AR has some of that improvement over the engines that came before it.

Gouky are you going to leave the compression ratio untouched? 8500rpm seems pretty aggressive with cast pistons and stock rods O_O
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
752 Posts
Discussion Starter #1,193
I'm changing the rods and pistons but the stock components are actually pretty beefy. the stock crank is forged and the main and rod journals are hardened. The stock connecting rods are forged. I can't tell what the manufacture method is on the stock pistons because they are fully machined but given the other components i would guess these are also forged. They also have coatings on the skirt and multiple oil cooler jets.

Keep in mind, the piston speeds on the stock setup are already probably higher than cast components can take and after 9.5 years of racing with the 2nd half of that including setting the rev limiter to 7200RPM and going up there there's effectively no measurable bearing wear. I can't really believe it, i expected significant wear but this stock motor really seems to be made to be spun up.

I haven't had an oil temperature gauge on this motor in about 6 years, i established that this thing keeps everything within good temperatures and decided to not put one on the latest build. Actually there's not even a coolant temperature gauge. The truth is that the driver is way too busy with the driving to be expected to look at those anyways. The stock ECU will do a better job of protecting the motor than the driver ever could anyways. I might find the limit of the stock oil cooler eventually but i'm not there yet.

As for the compression ratio, I'm not quite decided yet. The motor isn't knock limited at the top so there is at least a bit more power to be made. I'm thinking of bumping from 10.4:1 up to 11:1 but i haven't quite made that decision yet. I also have to account for bigger valve reliefs, i might have a hard time getting that higher compression ratio but i'll keep you guys posted. Once i get started in earnest on that build there will be a youtube video series on it and a new thread. I'll point to both of them from this thread.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
336 Posts
Its not the same engine but Sasha Anis/JWT made a 142hp per L recently
with things like very high compression, 2 rings instead of 3 as well as the usual
titanium valves/fingers and some interesting 3d printed oval tapered ITBs.

I feel with your success so far there is scope for more compression after all
the super expensive 2.7L stroker K series engines run 15 to 1 in Japan and US
Therefore there is definitely more to be gained from studying the years of
development that has gone into the K series and the VQ from Sasha who is
like you a privateer racing for fun (yet makes more hp than Renault and Nismo
with the VQ in full race tune)

Looking at the inlet pics of your disassembled AR it could do with some very
light cleaning up as well as some light porting and better texture finish.
This engine has so much potential and thank you for sharing the water pump
as its probably closer to 10lbs filled with fluids? As you know the elec pump
will allow more controlled and averaged temps to improve heat cycles, add hp
and improve packaging for perhaps better headers etc.

In your case you stated your plan not to go over the budget of a factory K series setup
but for anyone else wanting to compete with the 20 to 30 times more expensive
2.7L K special racing engines, the factory 2.7L AR as a starting point is just magic
as shown with your efforts and disassembly revealing its durability.

just for specs....
The Honda 2.7L stroker in Japan back in 2015 Touge racing was making around 380hp ate
and to achieve 2.7L had a 90mm bore, 106mm stroke billet crank, ultra-lightweight pistons and titanium rods 10,000RPM (RPM range is 6,000-10,000). Comp ratio 15:1 on race fuel
with grouted bottom end as well of other reinforcements etc
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
752 Posts
Discussion Starter #1,195
This motor has a ton of potential, as soon as i get it over the edge to where others are interested i think we will see some really interesting developments. Thankfully i'm not the one that has to do all of the R&D, reading between the lines on the Papadakis videos you can get a bunch of good info. Particularly when you look at the earlier videos when he was making power in the 800whp range at 9000RPM. it looks like he's not working on a megabucks so you can see he's only evolving things as they need to be evolved. The only thing we can't see is what the stock pistons and rods do but that's probably because they won't put up to the turbo build at the 800whp level. But we do know the stock oil pump will put up to 9000RPM and the stock sump/pickup will put up to some pretty heavy cornering, way heavier than I am doing. Of course you can't put too much weight into the sump/oil pickup stuff since he's using it longitudinally.

I do actually have a drawing here for ITBs, The math is showing there's likely to be a pretty significant top-end gain from it. But before that i need to work on the valvetrain. The valvetrain is known to spit out rockers if we rev much higher.

I just picked up a brand new 2.7L crank for under $550 shipped. You can't beat that price for a stroker crank. I know i said i wasn't going to go over the K20/K24 hybrid budget but it's looking like i will for this initial build. As we refine it down though we'll likely see that everything i'm doing isn't strictly necessary and the formula will get cheaper. Also simply going from custom to off the shelf will help the pricing a bunch. I will try to make everything available that i get custom made.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
752 Posts
Discussion Starter #1,196
Oh, another thing i wanted to mention is the valve train. other than the RPM limit the stock springs look like they'll block out in about 1mm over stock. the spring is also 25mm in outer diameter so getting more travel may be tricky since we can't use dual concentric springs. The cam i have is only 0.5mm lift over stock because of this so i don't have to solve this problem today.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,534 Posts
I know this is a weird question to be asking, but if the AR engine is so stout, do you think the 2ZR would be too? It's probably not worth dropping a 2ZR into a Spyder, but maybe another car...The 2ZR doesn't have a variable displacement oil pump, but it has a short stroke (sorta). It also has a cheap stroker crank available from the 3ZR, which gets you to 2L. It would be about 50lbs lighter, much smaller, have a more common transmission, and be able to rev a little more thanks to the shorter stroke.

I think you definitely should go high compression. The 11:1 pistons with stroker crank would bring you to 11.8 which is great for 93 gas. Are you going to add some of those clips to the rockers like Papadakis did?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
752 Posts
Discussion Starter #1,198
i don't know anything about the 2ZR architecture, but it's similar in generation and could be good but the 2AR is a cheap and available motor, no real reason to look elsewhere and then you loose the cheap stroker kit.

which clips are you talking about on the rockers? papadakis made a bolt-on rocker set as far as i know. can you point to a video? but yes, i am working on clips and custom lash adjusters to hold them together. i'm working off of the audi design.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
752 Posts
Discussion Starter #1,199
Here's the clips i'm using for a design idea. they don't fit as-is but i can probably get some different clips of the same style stamped out.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
752 Posts
Discussion Starter #1,200
Also, here's some of my notes from when i was comparing the 2AZ (the decision for the 2AR was not done without considering others). Here are the motors side by side, 2ar on left, 2az on right:


if you put them on top of each other with the cranks centered.


The 2AZ is significantly taller both above and below the crank. the 2AZ's exhaust goes backwards which sounds good at first but that's right into the cross member. also, i don't think the stock intake manifold would fit, i'm 90% sure it would hit the firewall.
 
1181 - 1200 of 1224 Posts
Top