[serialk11r]

I had to look up the Papadakis rockers again:

http://assets.superstreetonline.com/f/172096660.jpg?width=640&height=427

http://assets.superstreetonline.com/f/172096663.jpg?width=640&height=427

I don't see any clips holding it in at all! Seems like he just machined one that was a little thicker.

 

[Gouky]

yeah, and that's his slightly older design. the newer setup uses those on the intake side but he's upgraded the exhaust side. that's about when he started saying 9500rpm instead of 9000rpm.

It would actually be easier to design something like that but the price would be stratospheric for the whole engine. it would fit fine in a pro racer budget but not in a spyder weekend car budget.

 

[serialk11r]

Wait out of curiosity, how much money would that cost? Over 1k?

 

[Gouky]

Just thinking about it roughly, a one off version would probably be about $1400 for just the exhaust side, probably $2500 for the whole engine. As a production part it could be about 40% less than that. These are just rough guesstimates though. This is the kind of thing i would need several people committed on buying with deposits before going forward with it. Plus, I think the clip solution will solve the same problem for significantly less money.

 

[MRSJP]

The 2az was the best thing that could happen for us as because of its problems they designed the 2ar not to fail like the AZ did. (Here in Japan many Toyota Noah owners that are holding onto them experience rings, head (soft), sludge and bearing problems.

I know of an AE86 owner that went to great lengths to NA tune a 2az with beautifully designed ITBs, exhaust, cams and valves, porting, rods and pistons only to make less hp than a factory gen 2 3sge. eg. no more than 165hp!!!

On the pic comparisons of both engines posted comparing the factory 2az vs the 2ar inlets you can see how much better the 2ar is for tumble assist where on the older 2az the inlet charge is biased to the opposite side of the cylinder when its forced fuel/air at the top of the inlet valves which coats the exhaust side of the cylinder with fuel.

Living in Japan and surrounded by many owners, gearheads and mechanics they only have disgust for the 2az. I know technology moves along and there is a new engine to replace the AR but like I mentioned many pages ago, the new engine is not designed to be a race motor but an efficient torque unit that operates best at low to mid range whilst the AR is like the last of the big block yesteryear engines (eg Offenhauser) which with development could be the best budget L4 toyota has ever made for enthusiasts.

Another note the AR could be built like the Millington Torque L4 beasts that range from 2-2.8L

Millington Diamond Engines Naturally Aspirated Competition Engines

Millington Diamond Engines naturally aspirated competition engines diamond series is a purpose built performance engine the Diamond generates a tremendous spread of torque.

www.millingtonengines.co.uk

 

[neomr2]

I apologize if this has already been posted/attached, I thought it would help to understand the advantages and disadvantages.

 

[Master Z]

I know of an AE86 owner that went to great lengths to NA tune a 2az with beautifully designed ITBs, exhaust, cams and valves, porting, rods and pistons only to make less hp than a factory gen 2 3sge. eg. no more than 165hp!!!

That's quite bizarre. I have an NA 2AZ that only has a intake, header and a tune that is pushing out 170WHP and 175TQ. Either they de-tuned it on purpose or they have no idea what they are doing. It's too bad the 2AR doesn't have the same aftermarket support the 2AZ enjoyed There is literally every part available to make that motor a monster, thanks to the Scion crowd.

 

[MRSJP]

There is no worries for the 2ar aftermarket as its a better engine for starters
good quality head unlike the 2az soft units which have head problems worldwide.
The 2AR could be a nice specialized race engine for many cars not just toyota

That Ae86 only managed high 14s in the quarter mile and no where near 200hp

 

[Gouky]

it's possible he started with the older lower compression block. that was rated to 160hp at the flywheel and that was before the SAE official ratings so in today's numbers it would likely be a 150hp rating at the flywheel. So 160hp to the ground is a 15% improvement. but it's still only 76hp/L and i certainly would expect more. It's unlikely the dyno was too pessimistic if he ran high 14's in the quarter. the AE86 weighs 2300lbs, i'd assume the engine swap is a wash on weight, the motor is bigger but dropping an iron block for a bigger aluminum block. add 200lbs for the average driver and 160whp is about mid to high 14's.

As for the 2AR being used in other race cars, i think that's one of those things that will be seen if it happens in 5-10yrs plus. lots of series use 4 cylinder engines but they generally use older engines so when this thing is 15-20yrs old i think it might be a better candidate. The availability of the block is also fantastic which would help. this thing was installed so many models in the usa.

 

[MRSJP]

time to hog horde up on these beasts!

 

[Gouky]

I haven't been ignoring this. even though i do find building these annoying. The first very short hand made production run is here:

I have to do some final software tweaks for things like the cooling fans and then they will be going up for sale and i will then be looking at getting some automation in these assemblies. putting these together takes about 3hrs each right now.

 

[Gouky]

Damnit, it's always something. The option switches work but they are accidentally grounded at vias on the board before the intended cut location. if you cut them right next to the CPU they can still work.

I can still finish the rest of the tests and these will still be usable for some early adopters if they want it sooner but dammit this is a rookie mistake

 

[MRSJP]

You are doing early IBM computer boards by yourself, I hardly call that rookie!
The lengths of software and hardware know how required these days to get
late model things to work in a swap would have made you millions back in
the 80s and early 90s silicon valley days.

 

[Gouky]

You're partially correct on what you're saying relative to the product that comes out of it but the development tools these days are so much better that it brings the ease of developing something like this down by an order of magnitude.

One big example is the CAN peripheral on that chip. The chip i'm using has an integrated CAN transceiver in there that can handle +/-50V on each pin. that's +/-50V right into the microcontroller chip! All i have to do is place a double 30,000volt TVS(transient voltage supressor) on the lines and everything is protected. That also comes in a tiny package these days instead of huge complicated circuits.

Transistors are also way easier these days with super low on resistance. To drive the fan relays i can use just a single transistor, one bias resistor and one flyback protection diode. Previously a circuit to drive a large inductive load like a relay would have been a dozen carefully balanced components. Mostly that's because the packages that they call "one transistor" these days are often actually a couple dozen transistors inside.

And finally, the power supply. The left-most chip on that board is the switching regulator, it takes care of most of the dirty work involved in generating clean power from a very dirty noisy automotive power supply. There's still a lot of work that goes into getting all the circuits around it good to keep that chip happy but it's way less than it used to be.

Then there's surface mount technology. That makes a HUGE difference in assembly time. if that board was old school through-hole i would have to spend a day putting one together. Now i can order a laser cut stencil for $10 and spread all the solder paste. then drop all the components at the right spot and hit the board with a heat gun to reflow all the solder. Way easier.

Overall this stuff has gotten several orders of magnitude easier than it used to be even in just the 25 years i've been doing this stuff for. If you don't count my time i've only got about $3000 in R&D for this product. 10 years ago to get to this point i'd be in for $30,000 at least. Turning a prototype 4 layer board was prohibitively expensive until just a couple years ago.

But these boards will still be sellable for early adopters, they should still work perfectly fine. So far the only issue is that you have to cut a different place than labeled to enable the body controller driven fans. I'll just take care of that by doing it myself for the first couple customers. A little more testing and i should be sending two of these out to customers.

 

[rmeller]

... know how required these days to get late model things to work in a swap would have made you millions back in
the 80s and early 90s silicon valley days.

"If I knew back then everything that I know now, I'd be a millionaire!"
-Second oldest story in the world, retold by almost anybody.

 

[Gouky]

Huge step tonight, i finished up the production intent software for the body controller and i just boxed two of them up for the two builds that are finished right now to make sure everything is working properly in customer hands.

I'll likely hand assemble a 4-6 more parts so I can have some inventory on the store but the intention is to find a manufacturer for this and to get them manufactured by someone else and i just do the programming and testing

 

[MRSJP]

"If I knew back then everything that I know now, I'd be a millionaire!"
-Second oldest story in the world, retold by almost anybody.

How many guys can do their own circuit boards and software today
as car enthusiasts? there is a skill that is undeniably good here!
now he just needs to make microwave panels that use 4g and 5g
infra red energy to power our houses and charge our batteries

Dude has also helped my search for a FR bellhousing to suit the AR
The old Y series pushrod engine has the same pattern as the 2az.
In the future we need a T-shirt with "AR swap everything"

http://imgur.com/48EUjmt

 

[evilthorne]

Are you saying that the AZ and AR transmission flanges are the same(or at least similar enough) to bolt up?

 

[Gouky]

Are you saying that the AZ and AR transmission flanges are the same(or at least similar enough) to bolt up?

Yes, the differences between the bolt patterns are minor and do not affect any holes used by the EB60/EB62

 

[Gouky]

The body controller feedback is in from the two test users:

1)I got the power steering pump logic reversed accidentally, that's an easy fix in software but i'm actually going to fix it a bit more accurately with a small hardware revision
2)the fans come on while the body controller is booting
3)the above is noticeable because the body controller takes several seconds to boot the first time. it's actually because the external reset controller is configured to wait way too long for voltage stabilization.

So i'm making the final tweaks and then a short production run of boards.

Note they don't have A/C software yet, that will be getting worked on next. I've been procrastinating the hell out of that task