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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
We just finished up another 2zz swapped spyder power fc tune for a customers car:

http://www.ddperformanceresearch.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=83

Here is the map that was on the car when it came to us:



Yes thats 17:1 air fuel ratio in LIFT! The lift transition was also very poorly done.

We normally do 3 power pulls, but I couldn't believe the air fuels were so wrong on the first pull I thought the sensor was malfunctioning, or got pushed out the tailpipe.

The second pull confirmed the horrible air fuel ratios, and I stopped there as a 3rd pull was just not safe.

We changed out the plugs, coolant, gear oil, filter, cleaned maf, cv boots and started tuning.

Here's the result:



Hard to believe its the same car isn't it? At 6600 rpm we picked up 70 horsepower! This is why you get your car tuned by a professional.




Also wanted to add a fun comparo of the "LR" swap header and catless 2.5 exhaust & intake vs a ppe catted full exhaust and ppe intake (sonars car):




You can see that the catted PPE makes better midrange power, and a touch better top end power, with a loss in the bottom end. We would expect a catless PPE to pick up 2-3whp more peak over the stock style swap header design.
 

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Very nice!
Good job on the tune.


how much do you guys charge for a tune?

I have a 2zz turbo swap. I'll be looking for a tuner sometime in the near future to re-tune the car.

I have hydra 2.5 ( I heard its more complicated to tune this EMS) is this a problem?

Private message me so we don't go off topic on the thread.

Thanks, and keep up the good work!
 

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Thanks for sharing this data. I have a couple of questions:

1. Can you make an overlay of your tuned 2ZZ with:
a) Stock 1ZZ.
b) Your recent 1ZZ (stock-internal) turbo.

2. How much does a PFC and the labor for doing the above 2ZZ tune cost?
 

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Frankly I am surprised you guys kept the dyno going with it that lean, and then did another complete run. 17.0:1 can cause damage. The dyno run should have stopped abruptly. Seeing the AFR's go above 15:1 should have been an indication of the need for a tune before you guys wound it up to 8500... Not a very safe way to run a car on a dyno.

Regardless, aside from that, this is why I always stress how important a wideband gauge is on any modified car and why an actual tune is important. (Rather than a ROM tune or other 'tuning' that people do) I will never own a modded engine without a wideband.

EDIT: I also want to point out that looking at the dyno, anyone who knows anything can tell you that the engine is breaking up, bucking, and struggling to rev to 8500 the whole way up. Also an indication to stop the run.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Very nice!
Good job on the tune.


how much do you guys charge for a tune?

I have a 2zz turbo swap. I'll be looking for a tuner sometime in the near future to re-tune the car.

I have hydra 2.5 ( I heard its more complicated to tune this EMS) is this a problem?

Private message me so we don't go off topic on the thread.

Thanks, and keep up the good work!
Not a problem, sent ya a PM.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks for sharing this data. I have a couple of questions:

1. Can you make an overlay of your tuned 2ZZ with:
a) Stock 1ZZ.
b) Your recent 1ZZ (stock-internal) turbo.

2. How much does a PFC and the labor for doing the above 2ZZ tune cost?
The best comparo I have is Sonar's modded 1zz, or a 1zz auto in a celica that also was modded. We would love to get a stock 1zz on our dyno for comparisons.

I'll get started on that comparison. It will be a tuned 2zz, sonar's modded 1zz stock ecu, + our tuned 1zz turbo.

We are offering a package / discount deal for a PFC and tune, I would be happy to share it with you via PM :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Regardless, aside from that, this is why I always stress how important a wideband gauge is on any modified car and why an actual tune is important. (Rather than a ROM tune or other 'tuning' that people do) I will never own a modded engine without a wideband.
Thanks for the concern, and your feedback. I also agree that being able to keep an eye on our air fuels is always vital with a standalone ECU or piggy back ecu, or modded stock ecu vehicles.

The point of this post, was to stress the importance of just loading a map your cousins brother's friends, uncle gave you and driving it. Also to stress the importance of making absolutely sure you know what you are doing when you tune a vehicle.

Thankfully, we were able to correct the tune, and all is well.
 

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Little Rocket:

The LR header was designed to work with any Spyder exhaust. That's the reason I chose that one and I'm sure that's also true for many other people. It saves swappers some money and provides good power. It is really well designed. A really good B pipe like the JNZ Tuning part (very similar to one of the Che parts - but I think Che sells lower quality/performance pipe too), compared to the stock Spyder part, makes a HUGE difference - it was measured to be 11 HP by someone.

LR is a ridiculously good tuner. The 2ZZ-GE map that I used back when I had a Power FC, like anyone else's, would have to be tweaked for whatever differences there are from car to car, perhaps just a small difference in intakes. Proper tuning for the entire reachable area of the maps (fuel, ignition, and VVT) takes hours, either on a dyno or using Copilot for Power FC - or better yet both. LR did that on a dyno - meticulously making changes and comparing dynos. So don't throw the baby out with the bath water, if you know what I mean.

Using anybody's map on your car:

If you know what the differences are between your car and the one map was tuned for, you can save a lot of time by adjusting things like the airflow curve (a really good idea of the intake is the only difference, since just adjusting fueling only corrects that but leaves the VVT and Ignition maps untouched) or injector correction factors (really the only right thing to do if injectors differ).
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
Any reason you guys didn't bring the lift down to 55 or so? I'm not critiquing, just curious if you could eliminate that 2-300rpm dip? Not that you'd probably notice it in WOT conditions
Yes there is a good reason.

When we dyno tune a 2zz, we have to tune them 3 times.

The first tune is only the low cam, with lift engagement set to 9,000 rpm (to not turn on) we spin the low cam up to 7,000 and get air fuel's ideal and knock under control. We then go through each cam angle adjusting air fuels as we go until we have gone through max advance and retard. Then you overlay the dyno plots and get the best vvt settings for each rpm breakpoint.

Then you turn lift on at 4,000 rpms and repeat the process, going through each cam angle and keeping air fuel consistant.

Once all that has been done, then you overlay the 2 final dyno plots and take note at where the 2 points cross.

This particular car crossed at 5800 rpms.

Once you have the ideal lift transition point, then you have to blend the low cam to high cam transition. In addition to the usual air fuel, timing, knock prevention...ect. Then after we finish up on the dyno, we head out on the street and get all the part throttle and highway cruising fueling and timing done. So the customer gets a complete map, not just a full throttle tune map with the rest of it untouched, like some shops do.

The low cam (using pfc values) likes a higher vvt setting as you approach 6,000 rpms, say for example it wants 40 vvt, where as the high cam wants 00 vvt at 6000 rpms. The intake vvt cam can not move fast enough in a short enough timespan (100-200 rpms) from retard to advance at the lift transition point to prevent some small loss in torque. Plus the pfc uses hysteresis, and will attempt to average out the values between pre-lift point and post lift point as it crosses the cell boundry. So what you end up having to do is comprimise.

You can either drop the small hump of power at 5,000-5500 rpms down with a more advanced cam angle to make a flat or even upward slope to 5800 rpms and loose that midrange power at the expense of a prettier dyno plot, or you can do what I chose to do and keep the cam retarded for more power and blend it as good as you can with a small 1-3 hp drop.

Here is an example of a flatter mid range, which is a net loss in power (in the midrange 5000-5800), to make the dyno plot look better:



I could easily advance the cam at 5k rpm breakpoint to bring the small hump down, as well as keep 5500 rpm breakpoint at the same advance point, and make the dyno plot look like a small upward slope, but that would result in a net 10 whp loss in the 5,000-5800 rpm range, compared to the final plot.
 

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Very nice!
Good job on the tune.


how much do you guys charge for a tune?

I have a 2zz turbo swap. I'll be looking for a tuner sometime in the near future to re-tune the car.

I have hydra 2.5 ( I heard its more complicated to tune this EMS) is this a problem?

Private message me so we don't go off topic on the thread.

Thanks, and keep up the good work!
If you are looking for a good tuner in the WA area you are actually in luck. In the area we have three very good people that I could not endorse more. Most tuners like to have the car on site to do a proper tune. The Hydra system well it's a just not the most friendly UI setup but not the worst out there. There are many people around WA that can do the work.

1. Steve Isshi at Isshi Motors Inc in bellevue www.141motors.com (I have no idea why he named his website that). Steve and his tech Cam, both can do tunes very well. Both being former Toyota Master Techs is also an added benifit. Only draw back is he doesn't have an inhouse Dyno yet as the shop is only 1 year old at this point. He works with the people at Carb-Connection for the dyno time. Average cost for tune 1k up

2. Bob at Driftoffice in Kent. Bob has an in house dyno and has tuned many cars with great success. He will also do a street tune just to make sure things are just right. Last tune I saw him do was only 800.

3. John Reed, in Portland. Do I really need to so much about him if you know tuners you would know John. Super nice guy and has tuned everything under the moon. All those 1500hp Supras and Lambo's are his work. John's tunes ummmmm how much you got. JK he did a tune for a friend of mine for 650 but it was a very simple tune with an AEM unit.

People to avoid in WA for tune Illtech aka Failtech (sadly those idiots are right next to Steve's shop) and KO racing in Portland.
 

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Little Rocket:

The LR header was designed to work with any Spyder exhaust. That's the reason I chose that one and I'm sure that's also true for many other people. It saves swappers some money and provides good power. It is really well designed. A really good B pipe like the JNZ Tuning part (very similar to one of the Che parts - but I think Che sells lower quality/performance pipe too), compared to the stock Spyder part, makes a HUGE difference - it was measured to be 11 HP by someone.

LR is a ridiculously good tuner. The 2ZZ-GE map that I used back when I had a Power FC, like anyone else's, would have to be tweaked for whatever differences there are from car to car, perhaps just a small difference in intakes. Proper tuning for the entire reachable area of the maps (fuel, ignition, and VVT) takes hours, either on a dyno or using Copilot for Power FC - or better yet both. LR did that on a dyno - meticulously making changes and comparing dynos. So don't throw the baby out with the bath water, if you know what I mean.

Using anybody's map on your car:

If you know what the differences are between your car and the one map was tuned for, you can save a lot of time by adjusting things like the airflow curve (a really good idea of the intake is the only difference, since just adjusting fueling only corrects that but leaves the VVT and Ignition maps untouched) or injector correction factors (really the only right thing to do if injectors differ).
What are you responding to and what does LR have to do with this thread?

LR had nothing to do with the before tune as far as I know, and he obviously had nothing to do with the after tune.
 
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