Good point about it being 2023. There's some things that really have changed and should be considered. I don't know NJ smog rules so DYOR.

I'm on the fence about what to suggest. So, I'll first say this. At that power level a K24 is probably the cheapest way to go. To be honest it's maybe less work. However making it pass smog with anything at that power level is tough if the OBD needs to talk. You'll really need to know your stuff or have to run a Hondata ECU to manage that. There are rules and laws about that stuff so don't expect to find much on the net. You'll only find hints.

I'm partial to the 2ZZ because of the sound and weight. But be warned. To get to and use 500 WHP regularly is more internals work than a K. Anyone who says it's not possible is working on dated information. Don't believe me? Google Ronin Lotus to see a 700 hp example. To be fair Ronin does not run the C series transaxle anymore and he's a bit crazy. But there are now options available or in current development to beef up the C series. As far as drivability there are new multiplate organic options too.

 

I'm pretty sure, with the firewall cut a longitudinal LS with a porche transmission would fit, similar to a ls swapped 914

 

I love my 2zz but if I were to race, I would seek a motor and trans that is more readily available if I had to replace. The 2zz Is a tough find. 2GR and K24 (in Z) is simpler to get. The trans for 2GR seems to me to be limiting. The VW VR6 or maybe a Mitsubishi 4B11T?

 

For anything north of 300 you're looking at 3-4 options.

Turbo 2ar
2gr
K24
VR6

The first 2 it's unknown how well a eb60 will hold high levels of HP for long so most high HP builders will run the old e153 as there's a swap kit for those trans in a Spyder. There's also not many 300whp builds to have hard modification information on the 2ar, you'll have to tread some new waters yourself.

K24 has the best "power mod support" and cheapish engines

VR6 's are willing to take some boost for some high HP but probably one of the more expensive swaps.


Ultimately the chassis of choice for this is your greatest limitation. Not a large bay, doesn't play as nicely when the weight is upset...

Can't fit an LS

 

I would reach out to Frankenstein motor works. They have done a lot with the 2AR/2GR and may be able to give you an idea of what will be needed. He also has some of the things required to perform the swap.

 

ATS racing is doing some incredible things with a turbo 2GR, E85, etc.... primarily designed to fit in the SW20 but where there's a will....

Complete 2GR TURBO swap: 800hp! 650whp! - ATS Racing

 

Here's an old thread from someone that built up a 2GR for hillclimbs https://www.spyderchat.com/threads/2gr-turbo-spyder-build-for-race-track.80353/#replies

 

I just went through a deep dive on Peter zeelies cars and evolution to the current setup. Love the car, big fan of seeing the track videos and man that sound!

 

How deep are your pockets?

i havent heard of any cheap 4 banger setups that run 3-325hp n/a
a simple turbo setup will net you those numbers.

either way its gonna be pretty expensive imo.

this gives me srt4forum "how long will my stock motor last at 500 hp" questions
and usually the answer is "one pass" or "one pull"

 

this gives me srt4forum "how long will my stock motor last at 500 hp" questions
and usually the answer is "one pass" or "one pull"

I just need one dyno pull

 

Great discussion, and thanks for the advice, everybody.

Ultimately, my heart is with the 2GR, and I think that's what I'm going to stick with. I'll follow Gouky's convenient 400whp build guide and also put in forged rods and pistons while I'm in there. I do have my doubts about the EB6x. It seems like 440tq is the limit I'm seeing online. I do know that there's quite a few companies making adapters and kits to mate the 2GR and VW's DSG DQ250 and DQ500. If that's a possibility, there's plenty of aftermarket support for those two transmissions and the sky's the limit.

 

Great discussion, and thanks for the advice, everybody.

Ultimately, my heart is with the 2GR, and I think that's what I'm going to stick with. I'll follow Gouky's convenient 400whp build guide and also put in forged rods and pistons while I'm in there. I do have my doubts about the EB6x. It seems like 440tq is the limit I'm seeing online. I do know that there's quite a few companies making adapters and kits to mate the 2GR and VW's DSG DQ250 and DQ500. If that's a possibility, there's plenty of aftermarket support for those two transmissions and the sky's the limit.

These guys are swapping VW engines into the MR2. They call it "easy" compared to an AR swap because there is a lot of room for the VW engine in the engine bay and the exhaust is toward the rear of the car rather than by the firewall. They quoted me "£4000 for parts and £900 for shipping" for the conversion kit (which seems fairly extensive). They have done 1.8T and VR6 swaps. I think they have done over 500hp. Like you say, the VW transmissions are stout, so that's a plus.

 

If you want big power, then goin to a bigger engine is the way to go > 2GR instead of the K20. I think having an engine that producing 700nm and 500WHP is better than 550nm and 500 WHP. At this level of performance, torque matter. In 2018, the red/white Toyota MR-S Super GT V6 Turbo engine was producing 680hp/800nm. Now it has 1030hp.

 

2GR instead of the K20

This actually brings up an interesting question. What are your class rules? Are you already in the top class by doing an engine swap or changing to forced induction? The rules for the class you want to be in (or would be competitive in) may need to dictate what should go in.

 

E153 probably the only Toyota option. I don't think 500 wheel is going to be useful power in such a small car. I'd aim for 300-350 with a very flat torque curve.

 

I don't think 500 wheel is going to be useful power in such a small car.

ppppfffffffffffffffffffttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt

 

The Toyota C56 and C60 boxes will not take that torque/power at all I think.

It won't for long. Even with the new gear sets coming out from BWR and others.

I don't think 500 wheel is going to be useful power in such a small car.

That depends on the track. For example at Road Atlanta you certainly could use that power on the final straight. You're going to need more power to offset the roll cage, safety gear and larger heavier brakes.

Again, what class are you running? What is your competition? What's allowed as far as swaps, hubs, brakes, wheel sizes? Design for your class IMO.

 

Yeah it just seems like a lot of power. I certainly hope it's not just 'for the street' and dragging on people.

 

Those days are over. Just look next to you at the soccer mom in the Tesla. Don't even bother.

 

To answer some questions, no, this is not for dogging on people on the streets. As Node mentioned, EVs have completely wiped out all sort of street competition that isn't ultra-stupid 140+ MPH shit. I have a R1T and as big as it is, it has more than enough power to pass just about any ICE before they even know what happened.

As for actual SCCA racing, I belong to a pro-level street modified class. I actually just bought the MR2 Spyder about a month ago with an engine swap in mind. Whatever I do with it, it'll be replacing my modified C7Z as I'm getting tired of dumping thousands and thousands into consumables. For the rest of my competition, it's a lot of Corvettes, your typical M cars, 911s, etc. I have a C8Z on order, but that's far, far away in 2025. 500 whp isn't necessarily the goal. I think if I can get the MR2 Spyder to around 350-400 whp and retain ~<2500 lbs, I can still be very competitive. But I also don't want to get there, and basically be stuck because of either the trans choice or because the engine takes up the entire bay.

I reached out to the guys who are doing the 1.8t swap. A complete kit from them which comes with everything down to the custom exhaust is about £5000 D2D. Pricey, but a lot can be done by myself and/or shops that I work with. Foregoing the exhaust and chargepipes is already a £1500 reduction on that price. I am very interested in their VR6 swap, as they're the first ones I've seen that didn't need to cut into the crossmember to give clearance to the axles. But worst comes to worst, the 1.8t still seems like a great choice. The swap seems as brain-dead as it can possibly be, and splicing the harnesses involves only a handful of wires. The 02M 6spd can also take a substantial beating, and are much more available than the EB6x. I'm shocked there isn't more information on people doing this in the States. I guess the 1.8t is just that much more common across the pond.

 

I guess the 1.8t is just that much more common across the pond.

I suppose. I think the DSG stuff too has given folks a bad taste. The shift programs in the US market make the transmissions feel like junk. It's unfortunate because some of the early stuff was great.

IMO, do something that you can easily get parts for quickly and gets close to the power level you want. Since this is not a common car to track at that power level you will destroy some stuff no matter what. The VW/Audi 2.0 with all its faults CAN make 400 ft/lbs of torque out of the box with all the stuff on it. 400 with a WELL shifting DCT would be quite the track weapon. You would probably run with 911's all day. Kicking it up to 500 does require turbo, injectors etc... and there are parts that fail much more often at that power level. I don't think that is enough overhead for track work. You want something de-tuned. The 2GR is quite the lump and IMO too heavy when combined with forced induction for a car this small.

Regarding weight. I am not sure you were talking with a driver or not. But, 2500 lbs is attainable. (300 for roll cage). My car is currently just under 2050 with interior, turbo, cat, resonator, primary and secondary muffler. It will be under 2000 lbs by January (wet, no driver, no cage). So, I think 2500 is quite reasonable.

For track I think I would stick with a high strung light engine to keep the cars balance. So, you are going down the right road with transverse quick junk yard engines in the 4cly/VR6 size.

 

Ok serious question, my Dyno guy just assured me the other day he could get my 1ZZ to 400hp with 3k investment, that he has done it before (this same guy doesnt know how to send an email lol because tuners in Puerto Rico are literally insane) My question is how do you keep a 2,200lb MR2 Spyder on the road at 300hp and above??

Lol he also non chalantly told me to be careful with the front lifting off the ground

 

Lol he also non chalantly told me to be careful with the front lifting off the ground

Pretty sure several of us including myself have done this BTW. It really does not take much power especially after weight reduction and some stiffening.

400HP 1zz @ 3k. NO and certainly not reliable for track work @400. There ARE 400 HP 1zz cars around but not for 3k. Lemme think... (Rods/Pistons/Injectors/Intercooler/Turbo/EMS/Fuel Pump/Clutch). Yeah no.

 

Your dyno guy is an idiot. No way you'll get a 1ZZ track reliable at that power.

For the OP I'd recommend to stick with a NA option like a 2GR. Heat management will be an issue with a boosted engine in a MR platform. A well built NA swap with solid torque and staying close to the original 2200lb will be super fun. Hell my cammed 2ZZ that barely makes 200 WHP is a blast on the track and I only lose time to the faster cars on the straights.

 

What I'm trying to get at here is that it's light weight that makes the MRS so special. As you know, weight begets weight, and so a high power MR2 over 400 wheel or so will end up weighing 2600+ in track trim due to the heavier engine, transaxle, axles, brakes, wheels, and tires needed. Whereas if you stick with 350 wheel or so you can probably keep it to stock weight or just a bit more.

The car will be a bit slower in the straights but faster everywhere else. Plus the running expenses are always more as you increase the power and weight of the car. If you can make the stock brakes work with good pads and keep 15" wheels (wide ones, 8" will fit) then your tire cost goes waaaaay down.

 

if you want a 500whp car you need a 500whp chassis or a chassis that can support that number.

ZZW30 ain't it - not for any kind of practical driving. Maybe as a conversation piece. That's about it.

The options as I see them, for an abordable rear mid-engine car:

SW20 (2nd generation MR2). A little bit heavier, but with nearly the same dimensions as ZZw30. 2GR swap maintains the original weight distribution of the car. 500 whp with a 2GR is easy with either a TVS1900 or a turbo. Unlike the ZZW30, the SW20 has geometry correction kits available that make its handling very manageable. By the way, NA, the 2GR has been proven at 400whp. More might be possible. But maybe 400 is enough.

981 (Cayman). LS7 swap gives 500. LS swap kits are available.

I would not waste my time or money trying to build a competitive 500whp ZZW30. That's pure foolishness.

 

500whp ZZW30. That's pure foolishness.

Indeed. Pretty much impossible to put the power down in tight corners. The car goes from a velocity racer to to being sort of a point and shoot muscle car driving style. But, OP is not talking about tight corners. I appreciate the attempt and the fact that you can actually build something that crazy. Without basically rebuilding the suspension driving with that power level in a very light, quick to change direction chassis is QUITE the challenge.

 

Agreed. That's kind of my point.

 

You've asked many many times this same question in different ways about your plan. Go build it and come back and tell us, you won't get any different answers than you have in the past.

 

How about a nice compromise:

 

500whp is an absolute TON of power on the ZZW30 chassis. Whatever your engine budget is make sure you plan about double that for your chassis.

To get a sense of perspective on that, here's my 24hours of lemons ZZW30 at 251whp naturally aspirated, pretty much exactly half of what you're asking about:

We are regularly hitting 125-130mph at several points along the track and that's just with 200tw tires and budget suspension mods, with proper race tires and suspension it would be able to go much faster in the corners.

But with that out of the way, the most important thing that you should use to make your decision is the class rules, the SCCA is known for being very precise on their different classes and there's a very good chance that the rules will favor one of the options significantly better than the others.

Also, for what it's worth the 405whp 2GR-FE NA build i've done recently is getting upgraded, I won't know what it does before it goes to the dyno but i have every expectation that it will make at least 440whp and possibly more. Just like the previous one I will make the recipe to get there public. I'm also working on a low budget ~350whp NA solution.

If the 2GR fits in the class rules i'd suggest starting at the normal ~300whp configuration while you get the chassis sorted out and then bump up the power from there.

As far as the transmission goes I have parts to make it work with the EB60 but if the ultimate goal is 500whp then don't bother with the EB60. Go with an E350 with a quaife differential.

 

the most important thing that you should use to make your decision is the class rules

+1!

Whatever your engine budget is make sure you plan about double that for your chassis.

I can agree fully with this. My biggest challenge is traction. Touch the throttle and be ready for some steering wheel action! It's an exercise in restraint driving a ZZW30 with the kind of power you are after with or without traction control. I just placed a LARGE order with Techno Toy in what I expect will be a feeble attempt to regain some sort of traction. If that doesn't work the next step is to cut the fenders and widen the tires. Not much more that can be done with McPherson unfortunately.

 

Everything Gouky said.
I can't comment on your car but I have a 2GR turbo, 10 psi, at least 450-500hp in a 1700 lb Lotus. It is stupid fast and would not be safe on the street with cool tires without traction control. I only autocross and street drive the Lotus but I have had a dedicated high power fat slick shod road race car (413 whp, 2070lbs) that I had for 15 years and it last ran in Nasa TTU. Many say and I agree, it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car fast. High power, lower weight cars are hard to drive at their limit on road coarses. Straight line, drag is easy.

From years of road racing, wasting A LOT of money and watching others do the same, my advice, if you want reliable and lowest operating cost, I would avoid small displacement, high reving, high boost engines for power IF it is road coarse car. You want reliability and torque with the hp number not just 9000 rpm and 500 hp. Just a stock n/a 2GR would be dead reliable, If you need more power, I wouldn't run more than 7 psi on a 2gr if it was road coarse unless on more octane than pump gas. A high boost 1.8l to 2.4l will have problems running lots of laps, they all do, Miata's, Honda, Toyota, it's the boost and revs. Street or drag racing is sooo much easier on an engine than lap after lap abuse with no cool down in between. I would use a 2GR, start it with N/A, run it until I knew I could use more power then turbo it. So you know I'm not BS'ing

 

As an owner of a stock Europa JPS in the late 70's, I enjoy seeing that picture of your car. I wonder how that chassis handles 450-500hp and the grip of those tires.
The modern larger tires and hp/weight ratio of my stock MR2 is a nice step up from my Lotus. Between the Toyota build quality, ac, and it being a ragtop, I'm happier now. The MR2 Spyder is more fun to drive than many much faster sports cars I've driven. Your Lotus is even more extreme than those.

 

Both 2ZZ turbo (GT30 or similar) and K20/24 turbo will get you to your whp target and at the same time, keep the weight low.

Problem is more on the transmission, you would preferably use a DSG 7 speed or at least Quaife sequential C60 to be able to take the power.

If you are in a country that allows swap, EA888 + DSG 7 speed might be the best way forward.

 

Both 2ZZ turbo (GT30 or similar) and K20/24 turbo will get you to your whp target and at the same time, keep the weight low.

Problem is more on the transmission, you would preferably use a DGS 7 speed or at least Quaife sequential C60 to be able to take the power.

If you are in a country that allows swap, EA888 + DSG 7 speed might be the best way forward.

Is 500hp on the spyder even street driveable? It already can release the rear with very little warning with less than 150hp if youre not carful, driving with 500hp must be extremely hard. Maybe larger wheels and fender flares?