Daily driven or track car?

 

I've been using ATE Super Blue. Holds up at the track well.

 

I would stick with Toyota DOT 3 fluid. Some of the racing fluid or the like doesn't hold up as well for the street and needs to be flushed regularly.

DOT 4 is more viscus and not recommended. Unless you are experiencing fluid fade there is no logical reason to buy expensive fluid.

 

I would stick with Toyota DOT 3 fluid. Some of the racing fluid or the like doesn't hold up as well for the street and needs to be flushed regularly.

DOT 4 is more viscus and not recommended. Unless you are experiencing fluid fade there is no logical reason to buy expensive fluid.

You have a reference for that?

DOT 3 and 4 are both hygroscopic. DOT 4 has a higher boiling point (wet or dry). Race cars change oil more often too. That doesn't mean that the oil they use is inferior for street driving.

I don't think price is a big difference, compared to what you pay for pads and rotors. Question is, why would anyone buy DOT 3 brake fluid haha.

 

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because it absorbs less water than DOT4, it is less expensive than DOT4, for street use it is perfectly safe and will last longer as it absorbs less water.

DOT 4 will out perform DOT 3 when new and will, at worst, perform the same as DOT 3 as it absorbs water. You should be replacing your brake fluid every couple of years anyway.

$7 for 12oz of Toyota DOT 3. Or $17 for 1 L of ATE Super Blue. Price is the same.

 

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Dunno. I don't use my brakes.

If you're going to replace the fluid regularly why not do it with a high performance fluid? I used almost a full 1 L bottle of ATE last time I flushed my fluid. I'm guessing you'll need at least 2 of those Toyota bottles to do the job. Price is not an issue, stop bullshitting.

 

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The car is sort of for daily driving. I was thinking of getting a good brand of off the shelf from autozone or pepboys. Has anyone use a different brand of brake fluid? Or, should I stick with toyota brand?

 

You cant go wrong with any good DOT3 fluid however I would stick with Toyota brand only because it's quality fluid and designed with the right formulation for the seals and everything else.

 

Race cars change oil more often too. That doesn't mean that the oil they use is inferior for street driving.

I missed this one. Oil that is used for racing (depending on the kind of racing) is formulated very differently then street oil. They trade short term extreme durability for longevity in their formulations. I have experienced this first hand with "racing transmission fluid" where it did not last longer then a few months before my transmission became loud and the synchros were not engaging properly.

Most of the so called performance oils like Redline and the such are really street oils with formulation that lasts so that it's a non issue.

The best way to summize this discussion is that racing fluids is like lighting a candle from both ends.

 

DOT 3 and DOT 4 have almost the same formulation except DOT 4 has some extra checmicals to raise the boiling point. DOT 3 is being replaced by DOT 4 fluids. Luxury cars are making the switch so the common man's car would soon follow trend. Cost is the same so either way you go, you should be ok.

You should be flushing your fluids every few years anyways...

A number of import car makers do recommend brake fluid changes for preventive maintenance at specific time/mileage intervals:
Acura: 36 months
Audi: 24 months
BMW: 24 months, or when indicated by Service Inspection Indicator
Honda: 36 months
Jaguar: 24 months all models except 2009 XF (36 months)
Land Rover: 36 months
Lexus: 36 months or 30,000 miles, which ever comes first
Mercedes-Benz: 24 months
MINI 24 months
Saab: 48 months (all models except 9-7X)
Smart: 24 months or 20,000 miles, which ever comes first
Subaru: 30 months or 30,000 miles (normal service) or 15 months/15,000 miles (severe service)
Suzuki: 24 months or 30,000 miles, which ever comes first (Forenza & Reno), 60 months or 60,000 miles (Grand Vitara and SX4)
Volkswagen: 24 months (New Beetle, City Gold, City Jetta), 36 months (all other models except Routan)
Volvo: 24 months or 37,000 miles (Normal), or 12 months (severe service)

 

Well that's a different kind of DOT 4 fluid. It's what they call a low viscosity DOT 4 . The aftermarket DOT 4 is viscus and can cause problems in the cold and some say a problem with the rubber seals.
Even though these newer luxury cars recommend DOT 4 they also need you to come in religiously for a fluid flush because the fluid cannot hold as much water and can cause a safety issue.

 

For daily driving just go with TOYOTA dot 3, added stainless steel brake lines this winter and flushed system with fresh fluid. Can't go wrong with stock fluid.

 

If you are concerned about the water content of the fluid they make dip strips for testing your fluid. I just use the regular DOT3 fluid.

 

After using ATE superblue on my DD, I now have to agree with Dev's point on it not being a good substitute for a street car that does most of its driving on public roads. I did track the car once or twice and autox's but mainly it was my dd. With only a few months use, I noticed my pedal was getting really spongy. Went to go bleed and all I got was air bubbles. I have never seen so much air in brake fluid with such a short period of time used. I also used two different methods to bleed and both got the same result, mucho air in the system.

To back up the ATE fluid at the same time they do recommend bleeding the brakes before and after every track event.

I will be going back to regular brake fluid for the streets, mainly cause I'm too lazy to be bleeding brakes every month.

 

The problem I had was my clutch lost all of it's pedal pressure and I thought my clutch broke again.
I flushed it out and used the brake fluid once more and it was great until a few months later when the clutch got a little heat in it.
The drop off from having clutch and no clutch was dramatic and sudden. I think it should be a warning to others.
My brakes in the cold were stiff and not the good kind as I had very little travel and not a whole lot of braking friction. This all went away once I changed out the fluid back to DOT 3 Toyota.

Bottom line is don't mess with a problem that does not exist. If DOT 3 fluid holds up even at a track event then leave it in there until you experience fluid fade then you will have a legitimate story to tell about how you reached the limits of the braking system. Take the money you saved and apply it to something that gives you results that you can feel.

 

Ill come clean aswell, I asked Dev sometime back about brake fluid and he told me Toyota dot3 and nothing else. I ignored the answer cause I found a great deal on rbf660 dot4 and made the purchase. I regret putting in dot4 for daily driving, Its lost confidence in my ss brakelines and have to continual re bleed, I have speed bleeders though so its a piece of cake but Im on my last half bottle of rbf 660 and will be flusning to dot3 once its all used up.

LISTEN TO THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN AROUND!
they know a thing or two about this car.

 

LISTEN TO THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN AROUND!
they know a thing or two about this car.

Hey Hey! I've been here longer than Dev :tongue3:

 

I change my fluid every year so maybe I wasn't letting it stew enough. I never noticed air bubbles in my system though. Air bubbles aren't the same as absorbing water. You might have a hole somewhere??

To each his own.

 

Sorry to be know it all ...... again. The bubbles are caused by the water in the fluid boiling over. No offence but I thought you would have known this since it's the cause of fluid fade. Water in it's normal state is not compressible, it's only when you add heat you get the bad effects of racing fluid that has absorbed water and the fall off can be dramatic.

 

Liquid is not compressible, dev is right on this one. Only when it turns into gas do we get the dreaded fade. Ill report back after a few track days on how regular fluid is.

 

It will depend on your brake pad, the track and your driving ability.

On my car I can cook the stock pads in a few laps during the hot months in the summer. The fluid lasts a little longer but it will eventually boil.

The stock pads fade between 600-700F. A race pad, such as carbotech XP12, can go all they way up to 1900F. If using race pads then you must use a higher boiling point fluid.

I never look at dry boiling point by itself. The moment you open the bottle it start absorbing water.
The real boiling point is somewhere between dry and wet. The wet boiling point for the stock Toyota Dot3 is probably around 150-200F. Even the cheapest race brake fluid such as Valvoline SuperSyn had a wet boiling point of over 300F.

There is nothing more annoying than crappy brakes on a track car. Ask Cosmin.:lol:

 

There's no difference between dot3 and dot4 anymore by most manufacturers except for labeling. Basically it's all dot4 now. If you're having problems with a true glycol based fluid, try using 5.1, the silicate additive transfers heat a little better through the system so it doesn't keep it stored near the pads. The sponginess most people feel is a combination of water vapor and sludge build up as the ethers degrade into polymers. Dot5 compresses, don't use it.

 

Bull, where do you get your information.

They still sell DOT 3 fluid last time I checked.

 

Use DOT 3

Just decided to jump in on this big debate. I'm wondering tho what the debate is about.Last time I looked
at the cap for my fluid reservoir I saw the words "Use DOT 3 Brake fluid Only!"
Take it from someone in a country with the most (or second most) roads per square mile in the world (Check the Guinness Book of world Records). Go with DOT 3! I changed out to DOT4 thinking that it would do a world of good...Well after my first spirited 200 mile trip i was happy to change back to DOT3.
Lest anyone wants to sound off about a 200 mile trip being nothing like a track...smoke on this, one leg of the trip has has only about 30 miles of dead straight highway.The rest is all good surface but roads that are winding or 6-15% gradient...fun to drive but tough on a car!

 

Just decided to jump in on this big debate. I'm wondering tho what the debate is about.Last time I looked
at the cap for my fluid reservoir I saw the words "Use DOT 3 Brake fluid Only!"
Take it from someone in a country with the most (or second most) roads per square mile in the world (Check the Guinness Book of world Records). Go with DOT 3! I changed out to DOT4 thinking that it would do a world of good...Well after my first spirited 200 mile trip i was happy to change back to DOT3.
Lest anyone wants to sound off about a 200 mile trip being nothing like a track...smoke on this, one leg of the trip has has only about 30 miles of dead straight highway.The rest is all good surface but roads that are winding or 6-15% gradient...fun to drive but tough on a car!

Just curious what happened with the DOT4 . I take it as it made no difference or that it degraded quickly.

 

 

If you guys want to read a good article that describes it best. No marketing hype and misleading information, just the honest truth about brake fluid. I too was disillusioned until I did some comprehensive research.

http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/brake-fluid

 

I'm sorry, superblue is dangerous, it's an ethanol based fluid and highly flammable after heated.

Just a excerpt from the MSDS:
Flash point : > 130 °C (> 266 °F)
Method: ISO 2592
Ignition temperature : > 200 °C (> 392 °F)
Method: DIN 51794
pH : 7 - 8
at 20 °C (68 °F)
Boiling point/range : > 280 °C(> 536 °F)
at 1,013 mba

Basically it will light itself on fire before it boils...

 

I would think there would be liability problems if that were to occur. I highly doubt one car has caught on fire as a result of Superblue fluid.

 

My old el cam' that I used to drag caught fire in the rear. The only liquid back there is brake fluid. I honestly can't remember the manufacturer since it was 20 years ago, but it was another high performance break fluid.

 

I bet it was actually the brake pad that caught fire.

I'm sorry, superblue is dangerous, it's an ethanol based fluid and highly flammable after heated.

Just a excerpt from the MSDS:
Flash point : > 130 °C (> 266 °F)
Method: ISO 2592
Ignition temperature : > 200 °C (> 392 °F)
Method: DIN 51794
pH : 7 - 8
at 20 °C (68 °F)
Boiling point/range : > 280 °C(> 536 °F)
at 1,013 mba

Basically it will light itself on fire before it boils...

Does it give the upper and lower flammability limit?

The fluid should be in a closed system and unable to vent fumes for it to catch fire unless you have a leak. Fluid should also cool rapidly and decrease in air volume the second it exits the system. There is an upper and lower flammability limit which, ignores the amount of heat but requires the right amount of fume/fluid to air ratios.

I think this whole debate depends on how your car will be used. Cosmin and Silversprint track their cars regularly and maintain significant upkeep. I believe they know what is best for a track car and have plenty of experience w/ their fluids and know what works. If you are just going to drive your car on the street, want to pour fluid in, and be done for years, and have never experienced brake fade etc then probably a dot 3 is good like Dev is saying.

The original poster should probably go with a Dot3 but wanted to hear about Dot4 because his spyder is his baby and only wants to best for it. Technically they say Dot4 is better and they came up with Dot4 for a reason. There only seems to be some flaws in it if daily driving and not having significant upkeep in your brakes.

I would just go with stock if your not at a track reguarly and have never had issues with your brakes. When you start to track the car and see fade or other issues with the brakes (hopefully not catastrophic) change it then.

This was posted in Care and Maintenance but glad we got to see the Racing side of it as well. Put any fluid you want in and know after reading this what is causing brake issues if they arise.