[TeeMS]

Yeah I can get some measurements next time I pull it apart. I had the parts laying around to compare, the oem si axle was about an inch longer than the tsx with a male joint.

so far everything has been great! Like I said I was concerned about axle geometry on both sides so I checked full bump and droop, nothing abnormal, they look like they were made for the car.

stock length rear arms, with proper rear geometry with them still having slight / \ angles

 

[Petah78]

So from my understanding, DDS and Insane shafts are both PnP. However, after seeing the prices of the DDS, it's kind of "Insane". And I have read reports that some people are snapping them. But will i be able to retain full ABS functions if using these shafts? The 3rd option is the use of the N1 hubs along with some combo of OE Honda shafts. It sounds like there are a couple of Honda OE driveshaft options as outlines by Bi Doe and TeeMS.

Regarding the axles, passenger side stock rsx-s and driver's side 06+ civic si are the correct lengths to use stock Honda axles.

The outer hubs would need to be turned down to clear the spindle and to mount a (70mm ID / 80mm OD I believe?) tone ring. This would allow you to use the N1 Source adapter hubs, stock Honda axles, and still have ABS (the spacer would not be needed).

I haven't had time to do this yet.

Can you clear up what axles can be used? Do i need:

• 2 x passenger side stock rsx-s or
• 2 x driver's side 06+ civic si or
• I need one of each? If so, which model axle for which side on the MR2 chassis?

And what do you mean by "The outer hubs would need to be turned down to clear the spindle and to mount a (70mm ID / 80mm OD I believe?) tone ring". Are you modifying the N1 hub or the knuckle/spindle?

I used 2 right side TSX axles, and swapped the inner join to a male for the driver side. No grinding, no spacers. Then I tapped my rear abs sensor wires into the fronts. In theory this should defeat the dreaded "ice mode" that I have heard about, Haven't been in the situation yet.

If i understand this correctly, you purchased three 04-08 TSX passenger side axels, used one as is and completed surgery on the other two to make 1 axle. Is this correct? Can you elaborate how you combined 2 axles into 1? If so, which side on the MR2 chassis was used as is and which side required the 2 to 1 axle? And i think this solution doesn't offer a "tone ring" which is required for ABS hence so you just rewired the rear ABS sensors to read from the front. But i think technically, this is really tricking the computer and you will not actually have rear wheel abs function, is this correct?

BTW, thank you both for providing your insight to my questions. Again, sorry for all the questions, just need to get a good understanding to see what i am getting myself into. Thanks.

 

[Codename Bil Doe]

@Petah78

I have not done this yet as I haven't wanted to turn down the outer hubs to fit and then add an 80mm OD x 70mm ID tone ring.

The possible solution based on lengths are one RSX-S passenger side and one 06+ Civic Si driver side with the N1 hubs. Outers would need to be turned down to clear the spindles. That's why N1 supplies a spacer.

The OD of the stock MR2 spindles are smaller. I am currently running the insane axles. But, the price is not reasonable when you need replacements. We have proven out stock Honda axles over decades of endurance racing.

Best solution may be TeeMS's setup if you don't need abs. Another option for TSX axles could be to tack weld on a tone ring. I would have to see the axles first.

 

[Petah78]

@Petah78

I have not done this yet as I haven't wanted to turn down the outer hubs to fit and then add an 80mm OD x 70mm ID tone ring.

The possible solution based on lengths are one RSX-S passenger side and one 06+ Civic Si driver side with the N1 hubs. Outers would need to be turned down to clear the spindles. That's why N1 supplies a spacer.

The OD of the stock MR2 spindles are smaller. I am currently running the insane axles. But, the price is not reasonable when you need replacements. We have proven out stock Honda axles over decades of endurance racing.

Best solution may be TeeMS's setup if you don't need abs. Another option for TSX axles could be to tack weld on a tone ring. I would have to see the axles first.

Thanks. I think i understand now. The OE Honda axles are too large and cannot fit into the stock MR2 spindle. To combat this, there are a couple of solution:

1. Use the N1 supplied spacers (sits around the red circle in pic below) which will push the largest part of the axle inwards of the car to prevent contact of the MR2 knuckle. If this is the case, why is the spacers such a bad solution? I guess ABS will also not be functional with this option since the tone ring is not aligned with the sensor?

2. Machine the axle (yellow circle) and to reduce size of the axle so they fit into the MR2 spindle and install a 80mm OD x 70mm ID tone ring for ABS function.

 

[TeeMS]

@Petah78

I have not done this yet as I haven't wanted to turn down the outer hubs to fit and then add an 80mm OD x 70mm ID tone ring.

The possible solution based on lengths are one RSX-S passenger side and one 06+ Civic Si driver side with the N1 hubs. Outers would need to be turned down to clear the spindles. That's why N1 supplies a spacer.

The OD of the stock MR2 spindles are smaller. I am currently running the insane axles. But, the price is not reasonable when you need replacements. We have proven out stock Honda axles over decades of endurance racing.

Best solution may be TeeMS's setup if you don't need abs. Another option for TSX axles could be to tack weld on a tone ring. I would have to see the axles first.

Once again, I have ABS. I ran the rear wires to the front sensors.

 

[Petah78]

Once again, I have ABS. I ran the rear wires to the front sensors.

But wouldn't the rear ABS signal be just picking up what the front wheel is doing? Isn't ABS wheel specific? Both front and rear wheels will only be responding to the sensor of the front wheel? I understand by wiring it this way, you will not get any codes but will ABS actually function properly?

 

[TeeMS]

its anti-lock brakes not traction control. its a 3 channel system that actually causes more problems for the fast guys on track with the rear unloading and increasing stopping distances and/or sending people on an off track excursion, they call it "ice mode". Most people pull the fuse on track.

front and rear abs function will be based off the front sensors only, which should eliminate the "ice mode" condition.

besides that or pulling the fuse is to use a proper 4 channel abs system (expensive with minimal gains for 99.99% of people)

 

[Petah78]

its anti-lock brakes not traction control. its a 3 channel system that actually causes more problems for the fast guys on track with the rear unloading and increasing stopping distances and/or sending people on an off track excursion, they call it "ice mode". Most people pull the fuse on track.

front and rear abs function will be based off the front sensors only, which should eliminate the "ice mode" condition.

besides that or pulling the fuse is to use a proper 4 channel abs system (expensive with minimal gains for 99.99% of people)

Thanks again. Can you please go into more details as in how you modified the TSX axels to make it work? I havn't been able to visualize what you mean by "swapped the inner join to a male for the driver side". Thanks.

 

[TeeMS]

acquire 3 axles total. 2 first gen tsx right side (usa passenger), 1 left side ( this can be from an 06-11 si, rsx, etc).

The 1 tsx axle and the left side axle must either both be aftermarket same brand or oem, the aftermarket have different size bearings than the oem's so you can't match aftermarket with oem, I say same brand because there could be minor differences in bearing size between manufacturers.

Remove the large boot clamp on the inner joints. Remove the female inner joint, install the male joint. Crimp a new boot clamp on.

I recommend fully disassembling each side axle you will be using and removing the grease that they come with and repack them with redline CV-2 grease.

You can buy CV clamps on amazon, get the crimp style with the crimping tool.

 

[Petah78]

acquire 3 axles total. 2 first gen tsx right side (usa passenger), 1 left side ( this can be from an 06-11 si, rsx, etc).

The 1 tsx axle and the left side axle must either both be aftermarket same brand or oem, the aftermarket have different size bearings than the oem's so you can't match aftermarket with oem, I say same brand because there could be minor differences in bearing size between manufacturers.

Remove the large boot clamp on the inner joints. Remove the female inner joint, install the male joint. Crimp a new boot clamp on.

I recommend fully disassembling each side axle you will be using and removing the grease that they come with and repack them with redline CV-2 grease.

You can buy CV clamps on amazon, get the crimp style with the crimping tool.

Got it.

The right side/passenger side, you are installing a 04-08 TSX passenger side axle as is, no mods.

The left side/driver side axle, you are still using a passenger side TSX axle just with the (06-11si rsx) inner joint.

 

[Petah78]

More questions, what are you guys using for:

1. Clutch lines
2. Fuel lines
3. Exhaust
4. Throttle cable

I understand MAP has solutions for all of these parts but are there any other/better options?

Thanks.

 

[Codename Bil Doe]

Petah - the diameter of the splined portion of the Honda axle is larger than Toyota and will not fit through the stock hub.

The OD of the outer where the tone ring resides is also much larger im diameter. The stock MRS axle uses a 79mm OD tone ring. The Honda tone ring is larger.

The TSX outer works without spacers because it doesn't have a tone ring. The TSX is one of the first cars that Honda switched to using a magnetic trigger inside the hub rather than using a tone ring on the axle.

TeeMS - Toyota uses a 4 channel abs system not 3. Moving the sensors to the front leaves the rear wheels unmonitored. It matters a lot, especially since most people here won't be using brake bias control. Your setup allows free lockup of the rears without intervention.

 

[TeeMS]

I could be wrong about the 3 channel, but I am almost certain that I am not. Each wheel has its own sensor but the abs pump controls both rear wheels at the same time.

My setup will be based on front wheel lockup. The rear will still pulse not lock up.

Edit: just went out and looked, it’s a 3 channel, 1 line that splits into 2

 

[Codename Bil Doe]

It is a 4 channel system. This is from the service manual:

BUT, the abs block changed from 00-02 (44510-17080) to 03-05 (44510-17090). While the sensors were always 4 channel, the abs block was originally 3 channel (which would suggest you have an 00-02). The later abs pump is a 4 channel.

Regardless, if you wired the rear sensors to the front, a front lockup with a 3 channel (00-02) abs block would cause three wheels to pulse while one front had full braking. At best the car would be really unstable and likely pull very hard to one side. That is the last thing you would want.

On 03-05, the wheels on one side of the car would pulse while rhe other side grabbed.and the car to pull sharply. I would really suggest that you undo it and run no abs. I would not suggest anybody do that mod.

 

[Petah78]

@Petah78
Best solution may be TeeMS's setup if you don't need abs. Another option for TSX axles could be to tack weld on a tone ring. I would have to see the axles first.

You can disable ABS but pulling a fuse? And I guess no one can confirm if tacking welding a new tone ring onto a TSX driveshaft will clear the MRS knuckle, is this correct?

If Insane or DSS shafts are used, is it PnP in terms of ABS?

 

[TeeMS]

It is a 4 channel system. This is from the service manual:

View attachment 83531

BUT, the abs block changed from 00-02 (44510-17080) to 03-05 (44510-17090). While the sensors were always 4 channel, the abs block was originally 3 channel (which would suggest you have an 00-02). The later abs pump is a 4 channel.

Regardless, if you wired the rear sensors to the front, a front lockup with a 3 channel (00-02) abs block would cause three wheels to pulse while one front had full braking. At best the car would be really unstable and likely pull very hard to one side. That is the last thing you would want.

On 03-05, the wheels on one side of the car would pulse while rhe other side grabbed.and the car to pull sharply. I would really suggest that you undo it and run no abs. I would not suggest anybody do that mod.

Yes, I have a 2001. No that is not how the system works. each rear input is reading a front sensor. being that it is a 3 channel system, when the front wheels detect lockup, all 4 will pulse. do you realize that the factory system is capable of doing the same exact scenario you are describing? But majority of the time both front wheels lock up at the same time.

I think someone is over thinking an easy solution that was over looked and debated for so long as to why not to go with N1 hubs. You haven't tried it, do not try to discredit it, your thought process of how the system works is wrong.

read some topics on this forum regarding "ice mode" in the factory system

 

[rmeller]

Controlling the rear brakes from the front sensors would reduce the rear braking power somewhat when the ABS was active. I doubt that it would be dangerous. You would have no protection from rear brake lockup, but I believe that the brakes are balanced to make them safe against ABS failure.

 

[TeeMS]

That is true, not sure about the reduced power part. I think It would be almost impossible for my car to lock up the rear without locking the front. I run 205 front 245 rear Nankang Cr1's. I have only had it kick on since the swap in gravel and it feels the same is it did before. If I ever have any sort of dangerous encounter related to the abs function I will be the first to own it and inform the group.

 

[rmeller]

That is true, not sure about the reduced power part....

Well, you would be interrupting the rear braking when the rear wheels are not the ones that are slipping. I would think that it would make more sense to just disable ABS action on the rear brakes if sensors were not available for them.

 

[TeeMS]

Welp everyone is entitled to an opinion. I’m keeping my functioning 4 wheel abs and going fast on track