To all members...Just to clarify what happened here, several members were looking at buying the white hardtop. I was one. Based on the thread for the hardtop, I believe that I was in fact the first to respond with an intent to purchase. After getting some questions answered by PM and on the subject post, I was actually sent a Paypal invoice which I paid after I openned the invoice email. I received a call this evening from Graham telling me that I was not the first to pay and that my payment was being returned. From what the above statement says, the standard policy is to send out multiple invoices for a single item and then decide who receives the item based on who can get the funds in quickest. Needless to say this is a bad business practice. I also do not recall seeing this as stated policy until the above post was sent out. It was also not on the PayPal Invoice.
Based on the sudden availability of a number of hardtops after a fairly lengthy dry spell, I am starting to wonder if several hardtops had been obtained by just prior to their "discontinuance" and held in storage until the demand rose. Thus they are now available for a 50%-70% markup. Savvy business, but if true, somewhat misleading to the customer. I had some reservations on spending over $3K based on those prior costs that were at one point under $2K. In the interim, I will be talking to a lawyer friend concerning the ramifications of invoicing and making payment with relationship to contractural obligations. These probably vary by state, but I will pass on anything I find out pertaining to Hawaii. For now, I will be removing the hardtop from my wishlist. Maybe God was trying to tell me something about this "deal".
Good luck with the hardtop Corky, hope it works out for you.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

I will be talking to a lawyer friend[/b]

Boo-hoo. Welcome to the world of aftermarket. You see any HT hit the market, buy it and then get it painted on your own dime. Finding one in the color you want is just rolling yahtzee but shouldn't be expected.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HI-Wolverine @ Apr 18 2009, 04:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Good luck with the hardtop Corky, hope it works out for you.[/b]

Whoa there mister!!!
I don't know what's going on here so unless you know more than I do about my invoice don't implicate me. I've no idea who the lucky buyer is, as I've not been contacted by anyone in this manner.

I PM'd Graham with a couple of questions in regard to the installation hardware, and indicated that I was interested and asked about payment procedures. Graham responded, answered all questions and informed me that it's first come first served. Graham then indicated that invoices would be sent out to all involved and that the first to pay would be the new owner, I responded as soon as I got the invoice, and haven't heard a word from Japanparts since then.

I don't know what all the huff is about but getting this upset and threatening legal action over an auto part is --- well a little over the top don't you think.

Good luck to whomever is the new owner and if indeed it is me -- well so be it, I've saved for over two years for a Hardtop. I don't like paying 3k for something that should be more like $500.00 but it is what it is.


Corky

 

Graham has been a great vendor since the very beginning of the introduction of this car back to 2000.

It'd be bad business practice to keep your money, but he didn't; he promptly issued a refund. I'm sure he's had his share of speculators, as well.

As far as your implication of him holding back units just to get the maximum payout - pure speculation on your part. What you don't seem to realize is that Graham is located in Japan, which is Ground Zero for Spyder sales and accessories. I'm sure this worldwide economy environment has some people deciding whether to keep something with a high dollar value which they use only a few times per year. Japanparts is very well capitalized. If someone can get quick cash, it's available.

 

Consider the time difference as well. I'm calculating that GW rolls into work at about 8 or 9 pm (EST). I had a real time conversation (via pm's) with him at about 2am or so when I pulled the trigger on my yellow hard top for my white car. If you want a H/T bad enough, get it, paint it. Getting the correct color is just a bonus.

 

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here. I know Graham and japanparts have been great sellers on here, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't object to the "cutthroat" approach of paying. This isn't the first time I've seen this situation occur or be discussed; in fact, a similar situation occurred with a private seller, and you guys jumped his sh*t for being a dishonest seller.

The following is a hypothetical situation. The characters in this drama are neither real nor based on specific real people. It's just an example. Also note I have no interest in a HT, so this isn't a case of 'sour grapes' by any means. It's also not directed at anyone specifically--just a selling practice.

For example, let's say three people are seriously interested in an item for sale--doesn't matter whether it's an HT or a $5 item. Person A contacts the seller via PM and tells the seller they want the item. Person B does the same, but 10 minutes later than A. Person C does it 5 hours later. Fine, no problem. Now there are three interested people. However, Person A plans to purchase said item but goes to work that day and doesn't have access to SC until 6 PM (yes, that happens). Person A comes home to find out Person C now has the item because Person C works a job that lets him screw around on the internet all day, and he can stalk SC and send the payment before anyone else. It just kind of reeks of EBay, if you know what I mean. Yes, I know it's a free market, but we're punishing people for not having 24/7 access to SC and their Paypal account. There are quite a few members who don't spend all their free time on SC, ya know. (No, I'm not counting myself in that number.)

I don't have the perfect answer, but I don't see why the first person who commits to buying the item isn't given x number of hours to send the payment. If that person doesn't, then it goes to the next. Unless someone is desperate to sell right away so they can put food on the table that evening, I don't see why this couldn't be done. It just seems the decent thing to do. The honorable thing. It harkens back to the days where a man's word was his bond, and a handshake deal meant something...at least, in these cases, it could mean "you get the item if you pay within x hours. If not, the next guy gets a crack at it." Fair to the buyer and the seller.

I know you could argue that Person A had an advantage because he wakes up earlier (or goes to bed later) than C and saw the ad first. Well, that amounts to FCFS.

There also shouldn't be a double standard for the buyer vs the seller on the deal. If someone expects me to pay immediately to get the item and not lose out to someone else, I should be able to expect them to provide proof of shipping within y hours of receiving the payment--this wouldn't apply to items being produced, but for items ready to ship via USPS, UPS, etc. (Note--this statement wouldn't apply to jp, since they make it clear they ship by container.)

I'm sure there's someone here who'll tell me I'm horribly wrong. Go for it.

 

My twopence (not two cents aswe use real money here)

I think Hokies point is fair for two private parties in a transaction.
Japanparts is a buisness though and i can see why they are taking the first payment option.
If you walk into a store, ask questions about an item, say you will go and get funds and return to find the item sold, you can hardly complain. The seller has to take the sale over a potential sale.
However if you leave a deposit, you are entitled to expect the item to be held for you for a reasonable time.

So, how about a compromise? First person to pay a $100 deposit has 24 hours to complete the transaction?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nelix @ Apr 18 2009, 08:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

My twopence (not two cents aswe use real money here)

I think Hokies point is fair for two private parties in a transaction.
Japanparts is a buisness though and i can see why they are taking the first payment option.
If you walk into a store, ask questions about an item, say you will go and get funds and return to find the item sold, you can hardly complain. The seller has to take the sale over a potential sale.
However if you leave a deposit, you are entitled to expect the item to be held for you for a reasonable time.

So, how about a compromise? First person to pay a $100 deposit has 24 hours to complete the transaction?[/b]

I like you're point nelix. However consider the fact that the store owner isn't necessarily around when you go there the first time. So you e-mail him (or some such thing) that you want it and have a question. He answers your question says sure send payment. Then you send the money all within 24 hrs and come to find out you were beat by some punk who sent money earlier without question.

Now maybe if we were talking about a small ticket item this would be fine for a big seller. He can't waste his time with people fumbling about over a 5 dollar item so it's just first payment gets it. But on a 3k item that is known to sell within hours? Really? We can't sit on it for a couple hours or even a day to let the first guy have a shot at it? Setting a strict time limit for payment is perfectly acceptable IMO but just doing what ever on such a high dollar item seems foolish. It won't benefit you in any way except you'll save a few bucks but at what cost? Potential customers?

Call me crazy but I treat every customer like he/she is my best friend. Would I cheat out my best friend on something he really wanted because he had a question before dropping 3 THOUSAND dollars on a luxury item? No. But maybe I'm just lucky enough to be in that position where I can worry about a little thing called "doing what's right, just because".

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (darkday @ Apr 18 2009, 10:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nelix @ Apr 18 2009, 08:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My twopence (not two cents aswe use real money here)

I think Hokies point is fair for two private parties in a transaction.
Japanparts is a buisness though and i can see why they are taking the first payment option.
If you walk into a store, ask questions about an item, say you will go and get funds and return to find the item sold, you can hardly complain. The seller has to take the sale over a potential sale.
However if you leave a deposit, you are entitled to expect the item to be held for you for a reasonable time.

So, how about a compromise? First person to pay a $100 deposit has 24 hours to complete the transaction?[/b]

I like you're point nelix. However consider the fact that the store owner isn't necessarily around when you go there the first time. So you e-mail him (or some such thing) that you want it and have a question. He answers your question says sure send payment. Then you send the money all within 24 hrs and come to find out you were beat by some punk who sent money earlier without question.

Now maybe if we were talking about a small ticket item this would be fine for a big seller. He can't waste his time with people fumbling about over a 5 dollar item so it's just first payment gets it. But on a 3k item that is known to sell within hours? Really? We can't sit on it for a couple hours or even a day to let the first guy have a shot at it? Setting a strict time limit for payment is perfectly acceptable IMO but just doing what ever on such a high dollar item seems foolish. It won't benefit you in any way except you'll save a few bucks but at what cost? Potential customers?

Call me crazy but I treat every customer like he/she is my best friend. Would I cheat out my best friend on something he really wanted because he had a question before dropping 3 THOUSAND dollars on a luxury item? No. But maybe I'm just lucky enough to be in that position where I can worry about a little thing called "doing what's right, just because".
[/b][/quote]
When inquiring about a hardtop make sure you ask about if its been re-painted and or repaired. The pictures always dont tell the whole story..ask?ask??Questions??

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

So you e-mail him (or some such thing) that you want it and have a question[/b]

In the interest of absolute fairness, my inclination is that Graham is doing it right. First cash over the counter buys the part. If you have questions, are sending PMs or e-mails and such, these do not qualify as "dibs" and you'd have to accept that whatever you are gaining from getting more info is at the risk of missing out to a faster buyer.

The other arguments presented here are compelling and have their strengths and weaknesses, but, ultimately, expecting the seller to keep track of dibs and promises and inquiries and such is not reasonable. First cash on the counter takes it seems like the fairest way. A significant cash deposit might be a route for those who have questions and want to hold an item.

 

you should listen to arnold S' soundboard
in one of them say "STOP WHINNING"
click on that

http://www.crocopuffs.com/soundboard/arnold.html

there you go, first row near the bottom

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (southerneditor @ Apr 18 2009, 12:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE

So you e-mail him (or some such thing) that you want it and have a question[/b]

In the interest of absolute fairness, my inclination is that Graham is doing it right. First cash over the counter buys the part. If you have questions, are sending PMs or e-mails and such, these do not qualify as "dibs" and you'd have to accept that whatever you are gaining from getting more info is at the risk of missing out to a faster buyer.

The other arguments presented here are compelling and have their strengths and weaknesses, but, ultimately, expecting the seller to keep track of dibs and promises and inquiries and such is not reasonable. First cash on the counter takes it seems like the fairest way. A significant cash deposit might be a route for those who have questions and want to hold an item.
[/b][/quote]
Not reasonable? It's simple first one to call dibbs on the sale thread gets it. "Oh gee who is it that's first in line here?" "Oh look so and so posted right after me". Yep that's a tricky thing to do. But I guess the payoff per item is so low (We have used tops being sold for more then they retailed for???) it's completely unreasonable. :icon_rolleyes:

Like I said you all can do what you want but bottom line good business breads more business. That's just how it is. Doesn't matter if it's a "hassle" if you want all the business you can get you'll work for it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Not reasonable? It's simple first one to call dibbs on the sale thread gets it.[/b]

Understood. Yet you're looking at this in a way that probably isn't exactly what really does tend to occur. First, let's take the "best-case" scenario. A HT is put up for sale: $3,000 takes it, delivered. Now we wait.

In the next hour, the seller receives 3 inquiries, in the form of "I'll buy it, if..." So the seller puts these in order, first, second, third. Simple enough. If buyer one backs out, then buyer two is in line. But now the seller has to contact buyer two, who might also back out, and we're down to number three who might or might not complete the transaction. Then buyer one changes his mind and writes back, "OK, I changed my mind - I've got the money - I just sent it to you!" But buyer three is lining up payment.

It can get complicated, quick, and instead of doing business, the seller is having to send e-mails, doing work to contact people. Imagine how much more complicated it gets when buyer one doesn't commit to buy, but simply sends in a question, and buyer two sends in the money, then buyer one says, "OK, I'll take it." He didn't have dibs, but he was the first to make contact. Now, imagine all of these possible scenarios, plus a few others, all interwoven and it's not clear who is going to get their feelings hurt, or why, or how.

Ergo, first cash on the counter is clean, fair, and is the least headache to both buyers and sellers.

 

I don't really care for the "dibs" approach. The person who calls "dibs" doesn't always buy. It is up to the seller to establish what constitutes a transaction. "Dibs" just declares that you want it, but it isn't a transaction. Graham's way is fine. Not everyone does things that way, but he wants the transaction completed as quickly as possible. Was there a misunderstanding as to what his policy was? I don't know. Absent an explicit declaration of policy, whatever the seller does, so long as he doesn't commit a fraud/crime, pretty much goes. You can't please all the people all the time.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (southerneditor @ Apr 18 2009, 01:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE

Not reasonable? It's simple first one to call dibbs on the sale thread gets it.[/b]

Understood. Yet you're looking at this in a way that probably isn't exactly what really does tend to occur. First, let's take the "best-case" scenario. A HT is put up for sale: $3,000 takes it, delivered. Now we wait.

In the next hour, the seller receives 3 inquiries, in the form of "I'll buy it, if..." So the seller puts these in order, first, second, third. Simple enough. If buyer one backs out, then buyer two is in line. But now the seller has to contact buyer two, who might also back out, and we're down to number three who might or might not complete the transaction. Then buyer one changes his mind and writes back, "OK, I changed my mind - I've got the money - I just sent it to you!" But buyer three is lining up payment.

It can get complicated, quick, and instead of doing business, the seller is having to send e-mails, doing work to contact people. Imagine how much more complicated it gets when buyer one doesn't commit to buy, but simply sends in a question, and buyer two sends in the money, then buyer one says, "OK, I'll take it." He didn't have dibs, but he was the first to make contact. Now, imagine all of these possible scenarios, plus a few others, all interwoven and it's not clear who is going to get their feelings hurt, or why, or how.

Ergo, first cash on the counter is clean, fair, and is the least headache to both buyers and sellers.
[/b][/quote]
Valid arguement. You lay down ground rules that are very specific and very strict. For instance must call dibbs in this thread (no pms, e-mail, etc), you have 12 hours to send payment from that point in time. If you have a question you have 12 hours from time question is responded to get payment to me. Questions do not constitute dibbs which must be clearly stated. Any violation of these rules and your place is given up.

It would take a moment to draw up the rules but it's a one time deal since they are transferrable to the other threads. Also given the popularity of the hard tops there would be little risk to the seller.

 

I think he's able to sell it to whomever he wants. However, once someone has gone through the trouble to contacting them and getting an invoice, it should be communicated that other people have also gotten invoices for the same part and the first to pay will receive it. This way the potential buyer is not sending $3000.00 in confidence with the assumption that they are getting the part to only find out later that multiple people were paying at the same time.

So, basically, the process is up to the seller, but the communication should have been better as to how the process works.

 

I'll give you a real example. I bought a moderately priced item from a private sales thread. I posted on the thread that I wanted the item and the seller had a PM. I PMd the person immediately asking for payment arrangements and estimated shipping time, told the person I wanted it. Person replied with Paypal addy, said it would ship within a day or two. Fine by me. I then had computer trouble (no surprise to those who know I have a POS computer) that night, and couldn't access PayPal. So I PMd the person back and told them I'd send full payment first thing in the AM from my work computer. This person replied, saying that was fine but if someone else sent the money that night they'd get it. Personally, I thought that was really sh*tty. I almost cancelled the deal. In retrospect, I should have. Sorry, but it just seems greedy to me. You can't wait less than 12 hours for me to post a payment? Really?

If I'm buying an item on EBay or in a store, I know the terms. But this is a community, where I expect a little more respect and trust. I realize people who call dibs don't always buy the items--and I don't think calling dibs only on the thread is the right thing to do. But I still think someone genuinely interested in purchasing the item should be allowed a little flexibility to get the payment arranged instead of being told they're in a race to make payment. If the person has proven unreliable in the past, then I'd be less likely to trust them to follow through. But otherwise I think the decent thing to do is to give them the benefit of the doubt for just a little while.

 

i DON'T KNOW HOW THE WEATHER IS WHERE YOU GUYS ARE, BUT IF IT'S LIKE THE WEATHER AROUND HERE, YOU'RE MISSING OUT ON A BEAUTIFUL DAY!

 

he listed first come, first serve (that probably means with the cash, not interest or questions). questions or interest doesn't qualify as you as buying it. there's a lot of people who flake or waste your time/potential to sell the item. (ie. i'm sure many of you have used craigslist.)

cash talks, bullshit walks.

if you are genuinely interested, maybe graham would let you make a small downpayment, maybe like 100 or so for a few days while you decide. then if you decide not to take it, he can sell it to someone else and you lose your downpayment and he would keep as a fee to hold the item.

his current process seems like a good way of doing things.

what i would be concerned about is if you pay by paypal or wire transfer and you're not the first to pay; if he refunds you the entire amount (since paypal takes 3% of 3000 = almost $100). i know he's a legit business and he absorbs the cost of paypal fees/credit transactions like any legit business out there. i'm wondering if he sends 3000+3% fees back because if he only paypals 3000 back to individuals like us, we dont get 3000 back (less paypal fees is closer to 2900). then i would be mad since you sent him money expecting the item, but didn't get it so you should get all of your money back as if no transaction has occured/you never contacted him in the first place.

 

Looks like I touched off a good discussion on business practices. Just to clear up some issues.
(1) would you spend $3K for something without being sure of what you were getting? Maybe I am just a skeptic, but when I'm told an item is "used", I don't expect something in straight from the factory condition. Asking for clarification on condition and shipping details was the reason for my delay in payment. The fact that 6 HTs in factory condition showed up within 3 months was the source of my speculation as to the source. I also told Graham I would pay via PayPal and asked for a formal price quote which he sent via PayPal.
(2) Graham stated that he sent out 3 requests for payment to 3 members for a single item. From what I can tell, I may have received mine after he had already received payment from the member who will receive the HT.
(3) My interest in talking to my lawyer friend is to clarify to myself what the legalities are with respect to internet sales when an a seller sends an invoice to which you respond with payment.
(4) As has been mentioned in several threads, a first right of refusal situation used to be commonplace in good businesses. If a customer stated a desire to buy a limited item, he/she was allowed a period of time to make payment or refuse the sale. That period of time is usually determined by the seller. That principle was not used in this case. As an example, of this principle, look at any group sale with its list of buyers and how items are shipped/payment made.
(5) As for the HT, I have been seriously looking for several years after having just missed out on the last group buy when the cost was about $2K. Money was not the issue, but value received for the money invested has always been the issue. Living in Hawaii, I have no real need for the HT, it was to be used when I move to the Mainland after retiring in a couple of years. If that gets delayed due to the current political/economic environment, I may not even hold onto the Spyder, so it may be best I was forced to pass.
(6) Corky, I was told by Graham over the phone that you were the purchaser. I do not hold any ill will toward you, only to the process that Graham used to determine this sale. I for one will avoid doing business with Graham based on this sale due to his business practice. Everyone else can make up their own minds on the issue, I just wanted members to know the facts of the transaction.
Best wishes to all

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HI-Wolverine @ Apr 18 2009, 03:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

(3) My interest in talking to my lawyer friend is to clarify to myself what the legalities are with respect to internet sales when an a seller sends an invoice to which you respond with payment.[/b]

Although I don't think Japanparts did anything wrong; even so, Japanparts operates in Japan. Unless your lawyer friend is familiar with Japanese laws and regulations, I'm not sure if it can stand up in US jurisdiction. If you argue that he was doing internet sales and try to extradite Graham to the US for crimes committed, he will just say he offered these HTs up to the entire world through the internet, not just the US. (although he did say price includes shipping to the 48 states, he also stated shipping to other areas could be possible for a bit extra).

All in all, unless your friend is willing to work for free, I doubt it is worth the time and effort to pursue legal action.

 

I have no interest in pursuing any form of criminal charges in this sale. However, if illegal actions were involved, Graham could be barred from conducting business here. That would be a loss to both his company and our members. Due to the complexities of legal code, many companies may not be totally familiar of the rules. My main point is that we need to follow the rule of law as it pertains to the location of the sale. As I stated, I am just looking into the rules as they apply in Hawaii.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hokiemule @ Apr 18 2009, 12:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I'll give you a real example. I bought a moderately priced item from a private sales thread. I posted on the thread that I wanted the item and the seller had a PM. I PMd the person immediately asking for payment arrangements and estimated shipping time, told the person I wanted it. Person replied with Paypal addy, said it would ship within a day or two. Fine by me. I then had computer trouble (no surprise to those who know I have a POS computer) that night, and couldn't access PayPal. So I PMd the person back and told them I'd send full payment first thing in the AM from my work computer. This person replied, saying that was fine but if someone else sent the money that night they'd get it. Personally, I thought that was really sh*tty. I almost cancelled the deal. In retrospect, I should have. Sorry, but it just seems greedy to me. You can't wait less than 12 hours for me to post a payment? Really?

If I'm buying an item on EBay or in a store, I know the terms. But this is a community, where I expect a little more respect and trust. I realize people who call dibs don't always buy the items--and I don't think calling dibs only on the thread is the right thing to do. But I still think someone genuinely interested in purchasing the item should be allowed a little flexibility to get the payment arranged instead of being told they're in a race to make payment. If the person has proven unreliable in the past, then I'd be less likely to trust them to follow through. But otherwise I think the decent thing to do is to give them the benefit of the doubt for just a little while.[/b]

I think this is in reference to a transaction you had with me. If not...I guess it's worth adding to the disccusion, I guess. As I think I told you then...I think the most important things in a for sale listing are to communicate the details of the listing clearly, and to stick to what you've communicated as closely as possible. Why not give you extra time? One day could turn into two, and "my PC is screwed" can turn into "I don't have the cash right now". I can't recall for sure, but I think this has happened to me. So what's the harm in delaying things a couple days, then having the buyer back out? There are people out there who buy on a whim....an impulse buy. These people (I think I'm included in that group) will be serious about a purchase today, but their minds have wandered off to other things tomorrow. If I allow those potential buyers to get away in that short time...and you back out...then I've lost a sale. I've lost the opportunity to recoup some of my expenditure. If I had a salary in the six-figure range, something like that woulnd't be a problem. But I don't...I need to recover each and every dollar I can...and maybe even make some money on top of what I paid on rare occasions. As for the personal angle of the board...I've only met a handful of people I feel any kind of personal connection with from the board. There are even fewer people I feel that connection with whom I haven't met in person. I still take what happens/ed on the board personally, though. You seem like a pretty good member of the group, but I don't really know what kind of person you are. Sorry you may have though that was $hitty, but I would extend that courtesy to very few people. It's a personal choice. And I can tell you that I've conducted many sales over the years with a similar approach...I have a hard time recalling any of them going bad for anyone - maybe a once or twice way back when.

 

Ah, I see the fundamental difference here...you guys automatically assume the worst about everyone. I get it now. Kind of a "guilty until proven guilty" approach. Hey, your choice.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frpilot @ Apr 18 2009, 04:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

he listed first come, first serve (that probably means with the cash, not interest or questions). questions or interest doesn't qualify as you as buying it. there's a lot of people who flake or waste your time/potential to sell the item. (ie. i'm sure many of you have used craigslist.)

cash talks, bullshit walks.

if you are genuinely interested, maybe graham would let you make a small downpayment, maybe like 100 or so for a few days while you decide. then if you decide not to take it, he can sell it to someone else and you lose your downpayment and he would keep as a fee to hold the item.

his current process seems like a good way of doing things.

what i would be concerned about is if you pay by paypal or wire transfer and you're not the first to pay; if he refunds you the entire amount (since paypal takes 3% of 3000 = almost $100). i know he's a legit business and he absorbs the cost of paypal fees/credit transactions like any legit business out there. i'm wondering if he sends 3000+3% fees back because if he only paypals 3000 back to individuals like us, we dont get 3000 back (less paypal fees is closer to 2900). then i would be mad since you sent him money expecting the item, but didn't get it so you should get all of your money back as if no transaction has occured/you never contacted him in the first place.[/b]

When the recipient issues a refund through Paypal, you get 100% back.