[dblotii]

this has been done already...see rcntype

i assume all tsx headers fit, but i'm just guessing.

I assume the 07 stock (TSX) headers would make pretty good 2.0L Naturally-aspirated power? Low-cost, durable and with a easy-to-mount heat shield. Might be worth a try?

Dave

 

[slowpok3]

I assume the 07 stock (TSX) headers would make pretty good 2.0L Naturally-aspirated power? Low-cost, durable and with a easy-to-mount heat shield. Might be worth a try?

Dave

doubt it. all factory headers are short tube with terrible collectors. their job is to merge the flow asap so the cat can be mounted as close to the engine as possible. if you want power, you need to look for long tube stepped headers.

 

[TheMidasTouch]

Does anyone have a rough idea whether this would help or hurt our clearance issues with the alternator/firewall?

I don't mind hammering, but I will be using a Skunk2 Ultra with it's own problems. This could simplify things.

 

[AbandonMidship!]

Hmmm I kinda like that setup, I imagine it wouldn't hurt


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[paovang]

Does anyone have a rough idea whether this would help or hurt our clearance issues with the alternator/firewall?

I don't mind hammering, but I will be using a Skunk2 Ultra with it's own problems. This could simplify things.

I just put my engine in and i recommend that you remove the alternator first before you put the engine in. Other wise it will be a bitch to adjust your mount holes, because you don't have much room to move back and forth. I dont know how big is your manifold but I have Magnus intake manifold and it fits no problem with the fire wall. Good luck with your swap.!

 

[mixwell]

Here's an option if you'd want to keep your water pump housing.

http://www.k20a.org/forum/#/forumsite/20715/topics/201465?page=1


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[mixwell]

Here's an option if you'd want to keep your water pump housing.

http://www.k20a.org/forum/#/forumsite/20715/topics/201465?page=1


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EESH. here's a better link.

http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=201465

 

[BottledFedMR2]

Does anyone have a rough idea whether this would help or hurt our clearance issues with the alternator/firewall?

I don't mind hammering, but I will be using a Skunk2 Ultra with it's own problems. This could simplify things.

I have the K24 in both car and I haven't had a issue with clearance. I have the Skunk2 Ultra as well and there are no fitment issues. I will remark that I looked into run the electric water pump before I started the project and I came to the conclusion that the K series kits will not be big enough to pump the water from the engine to the radiator with the efficiency needed. I sure Dave can comment on this as well. I would be interested to see if it works for you but I cautious to you take it ease and investigate it as the K series electric pump were design to pump water from a front mounted rad to a front mounted car. Your now going to be pumping the water from the front to the rear of the car. Any input would be helpful

 

[TheMidasTouch]

Here's an option if you'd want to keep your water pump housing.

http://www.k20a.org/forum/#/forumsite/20715/topics/201465?page=1


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Nice. That's basically what I'm considering as the alternative. Can you (or anyone) confirm if this pulley system clears? Seems like it should.

I have the K24 in both car and I haven't had a issue with clearance. I have the Skunk2 Ultra as well and there are no fitment issues. I will remark that I looked into run the electric water pump before I started the project and I came to the conclusion that the K series kits will not be big enough to pump the water from the engine to the radiator with the efficiency needed. I sure Dave can comment on this as well. I would be interested to see if it works for you but I cautious to you take it ease and investigate it as the K series electric pump were design to pump water from a front mounted rad to a front mounted car. Your now going to be pumping the water from the front to the rear of the car. Any input would be helpful

The electric water pump option seems to be the nuclear one. However, I will be lapping this car very frequently, so I don't want to run into the same problems I did when this engine was in my Integra, I had to cut each session to 8-9 laps due to coolant temps. I actually share your concern, that adding 10-15 feet to the system could stress the pump. The problem is, the same argument applies to the OEM pump as well.

Meziere states that a 20gpm pump (The one K-Tuned bundles with their kit) will support ~250hp sustained. I read this as "actively generating 250hp for a long duration". Essentially lapping days, or track sessions of > 20 minutes.

So I guess couple the added system length and the average output of a K2X is very roughly 250hp (210-230whp) and we are right at the recommended limit.

But, we could always just use K-Tuned's water block-off plate and grab a 35gpm pump from Summit. The problem with those are that they are mostly 8 Amps. I don't know whether our alternators have that kind of budget considering the Spyder already draws an additional 4 amps (I think?) for its power steering pump. Anyone else know?

Also, BottleFed, you said your Ultra clears the firewall. Did you have to do anything to clear the water pump idle pulley mount?

 

[mixwell]

Nice. That's basically what I'm considering as the alternative. Can you (or anyone) confirm if this pulley system clears? Seems like it should. /QUOTE]


https://instagram.com/p/BB04MnekPDa/

Best pic I've seen so far. Ktuned responds to emails within a day too


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[TheMidasTouch]

Ooooh, this looks great!
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/aar-ac-rc4/overview/

 

[BottledFedMR2]

Nice. That's basically what I'm considering as the alternative. Can you (or anyone) confirm if this pulley system clears? Seems like it should.



The electric water pump option seems to be the nuclear one. However, I will be lapping this car very frequently, so I don't want to run into the same problems I did when this engine was in my Integra, I had to cut each session to 8-9 laps due to coolant temps. I actually share your concern, that adding 10-15 feet to the system could stress the pump. The problem is, the same argument applies to the OEM pump as well.

Meziere states that a 20gpm pump (The one K-Tuned bundles with their kit) will support ~250hp sustained. I read this as "actively generating 250hp for a long duration". Essentially lapping days, or track sessions of > 20 minutes.

So I guess couple the added system length and the average output of a K2X is very roughly 250hp (210-230whp) and we are right at the recommended limit.

But, we could always just use K-Tuned's water block-off plate and grab a 35gpm pump from Summit. The problem with those are that they are mostly 8 Amps. I don't know whether our alternators have that kind of budget considering the Spyder already draws an additional 4 amps (I think?) for its power steering pump. Anyone else know?

Also, BottleFed, you said your Ultra clears the firewall. Did you have to do anything to clear the water pump idle pulley mount?

So with the Integra you were running a OEM pump or electric and experience overheating issue's? We too track our car's. Sound's like we are both on the same page, I was worried above overall draw from running the larger pump. I'll look into the limits to see if we can support the 35 GPM pump, I like the idea because I can front mount it but priming the pump might be a hassle if it's front mounted since we don't have a filler in the rad.

As for the water pump pulley, no. You have to modify the water pump housing and bracket to which the idler pulley mounts. If you do not plan on running the OEM oil cooler, you can move thing's around. Or if you do not plan on running AC, then you can purchase a PRC water pump housing I believe, not sure on if it's PRC but the TSX one is the one you want. The water pump housing's are all slightly different. This involves less modification to make the ultra fit. And if your not running AC you can completely remove the idler pulley and run a 2 pulley system, which I do not recommend because you'll have to use the alternator as your tensioner and being that there is little room in there, you might have to either drop the engine or try and get up in there and re-adjust the tension every 3-6 months. I have numerous photos on FB on what need's to be cut/ grinded. Takes about 15 minutes to modify. I needed to design the swap and parts as a "one size fit's all." So I used the most common parts.

 

[BottledFedMR2]

Ooooh, this looks great!
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/aar-ac-rc4/overview/

Yea, I saw that one, Gates makes a hand full of water pump's as well that are electric and I get a discount on them. I have to see if any will apply to aftermarket setting.

 

[BottledFedMR2]

One other issue I see is if your running a Z3 head then you'll need to incorporate some kind of "Y" into the inlet hoses. There is a dump from the cylinder head that flows back out of the head and ends pre-thermostat into the thermostat housing. It is used to warm the thermostat and help it open. Many have reported that if you block it off, the engine will over heat. I need to investigate if that is because the thermostat doesn't open or because there isn't enough outflow. If it's simply because the thermostat doesn't open then we are in luck because we are going to be using a different thermostat.

 

[dblotii]

So with the Integra you were running a OEM pump or electric and experience overheating issue's? We too track our car's. Sound's like we are both on the same page, I was worried above overall draw from running the larger pump. I'll look into the limits to see if we can support the 35 GPM pump, I like the idea because I can front mount it but priming the pump might be a hassle if it's front mounted since we don't have a filler in the rad.

As for the water pump pulley, no. You have to modify the water pump housing and bracket to which the idler pulley mounts. If you do not plan on running the OEM oil cooler, you can move thing's around. Or if you do not plan on running AC, then you can purchase a PRC water pump housing I believe, not sure on if it's PRC but the TSX one is the one you want. The water pump housing's are all slightly different. This involves less modification to make the ultra fit. And if your not running AC you can completely remove the idler pulley and run a 2 pulley system, which I do not recommend because you'll have to use the alternator as your tensioner and being that there is little room in there, you might have to either drop the engine or try and get up in there and re-adjust the tension every 3-6 months. I have numerous photos on FB on what need's to be cut/ grinded. Takes about 15 minutes to modify. I needed to design the swap and parts as a "one size fit's all." So I used the most common parts.

A general rule-of-thumb for sizing coolant pumps is you need .3 GPm for every HP in order to maintain a 10 temp rise across the engine. Those getting away with electric water pumps are putting their cylinder heads to some short-duration high thermal stress and local boiling at high power. In real-world driving you don't notice the coolant-out temp excursions because you have higher than necessary coolant velocities when you back off the throttle. Long straights would be problem though,and overall you shouldn't be surprised if you eventually crack your cylinder head when your peak coolant flow rate is less than half of the full-power requirement.

Dave

 

[BottledFedMR2]

A general rule-of-thumb for sizing coolant pumps is you need .3 GPm for every HP in order to maintain a 10 temp rise across the engine. Those getting away with electric water pumps are putting their cylinder heads to some short-duration high thermal stress and local boiling at high power. In real-world driving you don't notice the coolant-out temp excursions because you have higher than necessary coolant velocities when you back off the throttle. Long straights would be problem though,and overall you shouldn't be surprised if you eventually crack your cylinder head when your peak coolant flow rate is less than half of the full-power requirement.

Dave

Damn @250hp that's 75 GPM! I'm over 250 whp. I was thinking as well if you run a electric pump and remove the water housing you will also not be able to run the AC. The brackets we designed mount partially to the water pump housing. Besides our looking to gain approx. 3-5 hp with a cost above $1,000. It's not worth it

 

[TheMidasTouch]

A general rule-of-thumb for sizing coolant pumps is you need .3 GPm for every HP in order to maintain a 10 temp rise across the engine. Those getting away with electric water pumps are putting their cylinder heads to some short-duration high thermal stress and local boiling at high power. In real-world driving you don't notice the coolant-out temp excursions because you have higher than necessary coolant velocities when you back off the throttle. Long straights would be problem though,and overall you shouldn't be surprised if you eventually crack your cylinder head when your peak coolant flow rate is less than half of the full-power requirement.

Dave

Hey, this is good info. Where'd you get that rule of thumb?

 

[dblotii]

Damn @250hp that's 75 GPM! I'm over 250 whp. I was thinking as well if you run a electric pump and remove the water housing you will also not be able to run the AC. The brackets we designed mount partially to the water pump housing. Besides our looking to gain approx. 3-5 hp with a cost above $1,000. It's not worth it

you are not going to gain 3-5 hp because the power to the electric water pump comes from the alternator at a bout a 50% net efficiency (alternator X electric motor efficiency).

Dave

 

[BottledFedMR2]

Hey, this is good info. Where'd you get that rule of thumb?

This is what he does for a living...

 

[dblotii]

This is what he does for a living...

Yes, I have been in automotive engine design and development for a few decades. The .3 gpm came from correlations to many engines in the '80s and '90's and was based on the assumption that you wanted to maintain an overall temp rise from coolant-in to coolant-out of no more than 10 degrees C at full load. It is just a general rough sizing factor. The few engines that use electric water pumps in production (BMW and Volvo) do so with a 400 to 500 watt unit that is very efficient and they were only able to use it in their engines after completely redesigning the coolant flow paths to minimize flow restrictions. Both these engines are supposed to be OK under continual full-load operation, like on the Autobahn. Neither company uses the electric water pump on engines above 250 HP. The Prius 1.5L engine uses an electric water pump.

The other critical aspect of engine cooling is the local velocities inside the cylinder head, and is more important than temp rise across the engine. At full load you need enough flow through the head and block to keep the really high heat-flux areas (like valve bridges and exhaust ports) at high local water velocity to keep the metal temperatures in control and avoid local boiling. You are not going to be able to achieve this if you are running half of the design coolant flow rate. I am afraid that except for light street use, EWP are way oversold regarding benefits and safety (durability).


Dave